State of the Church 2010: Have the Lines Blurred?

[DAII]

The upheaval and flux in the values and methodological approaches of the apostolic movement continues. Yet so much remains the same.
Take for example this multi-campus church in Arizona, The Epicenter, pastored by a former CLC grad, Joshua Feuerstein, which no doubt would qualify to many as emerging and relevant

http://www.myspace.com/itwillrockyourworld

In a recent promo video, Josh, slams President Obama as pretending to be a Christian and declares America as a Christian nation. (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OGRVHut4As

This same church is welcoming UPCI evangelist, Jason Sciscoe, this weekend. (http://triumphtoday.org/)
http://triumphtoday.org/?feed=gigpress



Not sure what to make of it?

Your thoughts on pastors taking aim at national politics and the President from the pulpit, in this manner, AFFer community?

I giggled to hear Josh appeal to John Adams, a universalist, who thought all were saved and who signed these statements in the Treaty of Tripoli:

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....

"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)

I worry when some seemingly declare that America is an OT reincarnation of Israel. A nation whose founders subscribed to a philosophical soup of Christian values, Enlightenment Ideals and Deism.

Should the Church be "mad as hell" with this "predator", Josh?

Is the destiny of the Church so intertwined with America .... really? The Kingdom of the Almighty, Sovereign God dependent on the Oval Office?

This is the stuff of Irwin Baxter gone charismatic.

This spiritualizing of politics is hurting the credibility of the Church, IMO. Personally I do not want to see it ... but historically the Church has most thrived when she is persecuted while manipulated shamefully when in the hands of those who would seek to institutionalize and legislate it, secularly.

When does the Apostolic church go back to preaching Christ and Him crucified?

The flipside ....

What of org evangelists making rounds to "relevant" churches? Do they have responsibility to say no? or preach holiness? Draw a line in the sand? Financially expedient?


Does anyone else hear the jihadist clamor of a JR Ensey in the wings shouting frenetically, "Choose Ye This Day Whom Ye Will Serve"?

What say ye? Do the more things change, do they remain the same?

[Hoovie]

Aside from delivery style, the Christian Nation thoughts are shared by many, perhaps most, in the Evangelical community.

Given the above, JS preaching there is a nonissue.

[timlan2057]

I didn't click on the video. If you've heard one fundamentalist foaming at the mouth against a progressive President, you've heard them all.

But it is a source of ongoing amusement that these guys think the founding fathers were all raving right-wing christian fundamentalists.

Daniel mentioned Adams; Thomas Jefferson revised the bible; removing the miracles.

None of those guys would be allowed close to a UPC pulpit.

The Founding Fathers also counted African Americans as 3/5 of a person.

But that's old stuff.

What I find interesting: could there be a "financial expediency" argument for UPC evangelists to preach in some of these other churches.

With the movement stagnating and with relatively fewer financially viable "holiness" churches to preach in, he may have a good point to run with.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by DAII

Your thoughts on......

I giggled

You don't want to hear my thoughts that you, as a man, confessed that you giggle.

[DAII]

Tim, when you evangelized were there inside pressures to stay within the circle? Did you book engagements outside the circle?

Originally Posted by timlan2057

I didn't click on the video. If you've heard one fundamentalist foaming at the mouth against a progressive President, you've heard them all.

But it is a source of ongoing amusement that these guys think the founding fathers were all raving right-wing christian fundamentalists.

Daniel mentioned Adams; Thomas Jefferson revised the bible; removing the miracles.

None of those guys would be allowed close to a UPC pulpit.

The Founding Fathers also counted African Americans as 3/5 of a person.

But that's old stuff.

What I find interesting: could there be a "financial expediency" argument for UPC evangelists to preach in some of these other churches.

With the movement stagnating and with relatively fewer financially viable "holiness" churches to preach in, he may have a good point to run with.

[DAII]

PO, I giggle at you often, especially when you stubbornly whine

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You don't want to hear my thoughts that you, as a man, confessed that you giggle.

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by DAII

Tim, when you evangelized were there inside pressures to stay within the circle? Did you book engagements outside the circle?

I preached in relatively few churches outside the org. One I distinctly remember was an Apostolic Assemblies in Salt Lake City--Brother Vigil. Some here may know him.

That was home missions and quite different. You must remember too, the economy was strong, there were plenty churches to preach in and at-least-two-week revivals were the norm. (1978-1986.)

Now, blood was thicker than water. A. L. O'Brian preached for Murrell Ewing even when the AMF rift was still relatively fresh.

So District Boards had a tendency to look the other way, depending on who was involved.

I just never thought of it this way, but maybe Siscoe and others have a point with "financial expediency" in 2010.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by DAII

PO, I giggle at you often, especially when you stubborly whine

[Timmy]

[DAII]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

I preached in relatively few churches outside the org. One I distinctly remember was an Apostolic Assemblies in Salt Lake City--Brother Vigil. Some here may know him.

That was home missions and quite different. You must remember too, the economy was strong, there were plenty churches to preach in and at-least-two-week revivals were the norm. (1978-1986.)

Now, blood was thicker than water. A. L. O'Brian preached for Murrell Ewing even when the AMF rift was still relatively fresh.

So District Boards had a tendency to look the other way, depending on who was involved.

I just never thought of it this way, but maybe Siscoe and others have a point with "financial expediency" in 2010.

Interesting Tim,

The churches you eluded to seem to be holiness conservative churches.

This situation seems unique.

I think the economy may play a role.

I have a friend who is an evangelist out of Arizona who confessed to me that engagements are spotty in the last year.