Letter from Bro. Chester Wright to Bro. Haney

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I'd like to know where baptism is ever referred to as being 'born again' in the Bible.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Baptisms - plural - are foundational principles of the doctrine or teachings of Christ.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Baptisms - plural - are foundational principles of the doctrine or teachings of Christ.

So, then scripture was lying when it said there was only one baptism?

I'm confused. I guess Paul didn't write Hebrews after all.

However, I still don't see scripture saying that baptism=being born again.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

So, then scripture was lying when it said there was only one baptism?

I'm confused. I guess Paul didn't write Hebrews after all.

However, I still don't see scripture saying that baptism=being born again.

No, the Scriptures weren't lying when they spoke of "one baptism" in Ephesians 4:5. It needs to be read in context. Which of the several Bible baptisms does it refer to? The Hebrews passage says there are baptisms (plural). There is no contradiction.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by CC1

You do realize your first scripture quoted above does NOT say "Except a man be born AGAIN" as many Oneness people misquote it? Of course a man is "born of water" as that is the natural birth from a womans womb and then later is born of the Spirit when he accepts Christ as his saviour.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In response to v.3's "born again", in v. 4 Nicodemus asked "How...". Jesus in v.5 answered his question of "how" to be "born again".

Except a "man" - not a baby - a man be born of water.

Jesus set the context in v.3 - born AGAIN. Why would Jesus mention something redundant in the context of being born AGAIN which includes all of eternity? I don't Jesus would waste his time like that.

Now, concerning salvation, we know NT water baptism is required because Philip began at the same scriptures and preached Christ to the Ethiopian Eunuch. And we know he included NT water baptism. Therefore, one cannot preach Christ with the context of being saved/born again without mentioning water baptism.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Kingdom of God - born of water and Spirit
name of Jesus Christ - remission of sins is only through the name (Acts 10:43) - repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
They were baptized.

Angel to Cornelius - Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
TO DO for what?
Peter explaining after-the-fact - Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
To be saved

Cornelius speaking to Peter - Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Cornelius was ready to hear all things COMMANDED Peter of God

What did Peter COMMAND to be done to Cornelius after he was rec'd the Holy Ghost?

Water - Baptism - COMMANDED - Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter was sent to tell him what he ought TO DO. What did Cornelius DO? What did Peter command to be done with him? He commanded him to be baptized.

Water baptism part of NT "saving"...

If a sinner had all of his past sins remitted or washed away, do you think it would give him a good conscience towards God?
It seems that Peter in his epistle thought so...
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Noah and his family were saved by water in the ark because the water washed away the sins and wickedness of the world - just like NT water baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission or washing away of sins, giving one a good conscience towards God

There is more, but I'll leave it at that for now.

God bless.

[Sam]

theoldpaths and I (Sam) have posted two of the several opinions held by Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals about what the "water" of John 3:5 means. Others believe it is a reference to the Spirit of God. In other words Jesus is saying, "unless a person is born of water even the Spirit of God" or "unless a person is born of water which is the Spirit of God." There are diverse views among us as to just what is meant here. The main thing is to accept and respect others who do not see things the way we do. When the UPC was formed in 1945 it was based on a diversity of beliefs as to the plan of salvation and the new birth but an emphasis was placed on unity and not contending for individual beliefs. That was the purpose for the original "fundamental doctrine" statement.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Sam

theoldpaths and I (Sam) have posted two of the several opinions held by Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals about what the "water" of John 3:5 means. Others believe it is a reference to the Spirit of God. In other words Jesus is saying, "unless a person is born of water even the Spirit of God" or "unless a person is born of water which is the Spirit of God." There are diverse views among us as to just what is meant here. The main thing is to accept and respect others who do not see things the way we do. When the UPC was formed in 1945 it was based on a diversity of beliefs as to the plan of salvation and the new birth but an emphasis was placed on unity and not contending for individual beliefs. That was the purpose for the original "fundamental doctrine" statement.

What you have said is so true, Sam. It is a shame that the original spirit has been distorted and been transformed into exclusivity instead of inclusivity and a desire to share with the world instead of condemn the world.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

So, then scripture was lying when it said there was only one baptism?

I'm confused. I guess Paul didn't write Hebrews after all.

However, I still don't see scripture saying that baptism=being born again.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Now if the above scripture would have been written like this instead...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses

..., then how many baptisms would you see? I would have assumed only 1 and that being in the red sea.

But because the original version shows that there were 2 baptisms, we can say that the baptism of Moses contains 2 baptisms. Similarily we can say that the baptism of Christ has 2 baptisms - 1 by water and 1 by Spirit - just llike the OT type and shadow of 1 Cor 10:1-2.

Therefore, when the Acts say something like they were "baptized" but doesn't say whether it was water or Spirit, it was probably BOTH.

Take for example the following scriptures...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How many baptisms do you see in Acts 2:38? I see 2 - 1 of water and one of Spirit. Let's continue...

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They that gladly rec'd his word were baptized - is that water baptism, Spirit baptism or both? He just told them both in Acts 2:38 and they glady rec'd his word and obeyed what he just told them. When you compare the conversion of the Jews here in Acts 2 with the conversion of the Samaritans in Acts 8, the Gentiles in Acts 10, and John's disciples in Acts 19 they all included both.

Another example is the Corinthian church...

Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

It doesn't say whether it was water or Spirit or both, but in the epistles to the Corinthians, we know that they spoke with other tongues, so they had to have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in addition to being water baptized.

Another possible explanation is that a lot of them rec'd the baptism of the Holy Ghost when they came up out of the water during their water baptism in Jesus name; therefore they viewed it as the one baptism of Christ included water and Spirit.

Another possible explanation of Eph 4:5 is that Jesus knew that the early Catholics would change NT water baptism to a "second" water baptism and therefore made it quite clear in scripture that there is only 1 valid water baptism.

In any event, God is not confused and does NOT contradict himself. When 2 scriptures seem to create an "apparent" contradiction, usually there are other scriptures that clarify it.

Hebrews makes it clear that baptisms - plural - was a foundational principle teaching of Jesus and when we look at the conversion of the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles we see them all speaking, obeying, and receiving baptism in water and Spirit.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

What you have said is so true, Sam. It is a shame that the original spirit has been distorted and been transformed into exclusivity instead of inclusivity and a desire to share with the world instead of condemn the world.

I respect others right to believe what they want to.

I think there are some things that we can agree on though...

- his blood was shed for the remission of sins
- remission of sins is only through the name
- there is only 1 name given among men whereby we must be saved, therefore the name somehow is involved in salvation
- Peter in Acts 2:38 said to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
- Paul was told to be baptized to wash away his sins even though he probably spent much time before that in repentance after being struck down and blinded by Jesus and told he was kicking against the pricks; i.e., by persecuting Christians, he was doing something against God that was very bad (yes I know I've taken liberty here, but what else would a very religious person do after what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?)
- When we examine the conversion of the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles; the 3 categories of men mentioned in Acts 1:8 that they were to be witnesses to, they all included water and Spirit baptism
- when one is baptized they are buried with Christ into death and that IF - conditional - we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
- Noah being saved by water is a figure for NT water baptism
- baptisms - plural - is a foundational principle of the doctrine - teaching - of Christ; therefore Christ taught baptisms - plural - and the only plural baptisms I read about in the gospels is water and Spirit

I think these are all things we can agree on because they are all mentioned in scripture - aside from my commentary of course.

In spite of what the Grecians and Jews believed, Paul disputed with them daily.

Jude wrote to them about the common salvation because it was needful to write unto them and exhort them to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I wonder how many common salvation's there were? And I wonder how many "the faith"'s there were?

Why was it needful for him to write unto them to fight for the original apostolic faith? Because some were creeping in unawares, unnoticed, like they belong and were showing and teaching something different; something that contradicted.

That is why Jesus told Peter 3 times to feed his sheep and why Paul told the elders to feed the flock and why leaders in the church are to reprove and rebuke and correct anything that is contrary - so the 1 true faith would be and stay established in their minds and in their hearts - so that when something comes around that is different and contrary, it would not be tolerated by the leaders and the saints; and that they would be ashamed.

But I think we can agree on those things I listed above, can't we apostolics baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and having rec'd the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Now if the above scripture would have been written like this instead...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses

..., then how many baptisms would you see? I would have assumed only 1 and that being in the red sea.

But because the original version shows that there were 2 baptisms, we can say that the baptism of Moses contains 2 baptisms. Similarily we can say that the baptism of Christ has 2 baptisms - 1 by water and 1 by Spirit - just llike the OT type and shadow of 1 Cor 10:1-2.

Therefore, when the Acts say something like they were "baptized" but doesn't say whether it was water or Spirit, it was probably BOTH.

Take for example the following scriptures...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How many baptisms do you see in Acts 2:38? I see 2 - 1 of water and one of Spirit. Let's continue...

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They that gladly rec'd his word were baptized - is that water baptism, Spirit baptism or both? He just told them both in Acts 2:38 and they glady rec'd his word and obeyed what he just told them. When you compare the conversion of the Jews here in Acts 2 with the conversion of the Samaritans in Acts 8, the Gentiles in Acts 10, and John's disciples in Acts 19 they all included both.

Another example is the Corinthian church...

Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

It doesn't say whether it was water or Spirit or both, but in the epistles to the Corinthians, we know that they spoke with other tongues, so they had to have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in addition to being water baptized.

Another possible explanation is that a lot of them rec'd the baptism of the Holy Ghost when they came up out of the water during their water baptism in Jesus name; therefore they viewed it as the one baptism of Christ included water and Spirit.

Another possible explanation of Eph 4:5 is that Jesus knew that the early Catholics would change NT water baptism to a "second" water baptism and therefore made it quite clear in scripture that there is only 1 valid water baptism.

In any event, God is not confused and does NOT contradict himself. When 2 scriptures seem to create an "apparent" contradiction, usually there are other scriptures that clarify it.

Hebrews makes it clear that baptisms - plural - was a foundational principle teaching of Jesus and when we look at the conversion of the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles we see them all speaking, obeying, and receiving baptism in water and Spirit.

Thanks for that. I'm still not clear, but the question remains...does the Bible refer to baptism as being 'born again'? That has been my question which is still unanswered. I'm trying to figure this out.

[CC1]

Back to the subject of this thread does anybody know if the UPC pastor called out in Chester Wright's letter has responded to the letter?