But I would say Jesus is NOT the Father of the only begotten Son.
Not because he is not God even as the Father is God - He is, but because the term "Father" generally implies God in parental relationship (apart from the incarnation), while Jesus, the "Son of God", implies God as he relates to us through and within the incarnation.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Dr Nelson teaches it isn't necessary to have a revelation of th eoneness because Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc all understood One God without some mystical revelation.
However, I have seen firsthand hOw some people can read and read and never get it, but then one day they are praying or such and suddenly it "clicks" and they understand.
I am sure I should know... but who is Dr Nelson? I just keep thinking of the monkey in Pipi Longstocking.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
But I would say Jesus is NOT the Father of the only begotten Son.
Not because he is not God even as the Father is God - He is, but because the term "Father" generally implies God in parental relationship (apart from the incarnation), while Jesus, the "Son of God", implies God as he relates to us through and within the incarnation.
Ok lets make it simple. If Jesus was God the Father in the Old Testament, and God the Father is the Father of Jesus is he not his own Father?
Is not this the revelation of "I and my Father are one"?
...
However, I have seen firsthand hOw some people can read and read and never get it, but then one day they are praying or such and suddenly it "clicks" and they understand.
On December 6, 1955 it "clicked" for me.
I was saved on March 28, 1955.
I later joined a local Baptist Church (GARB organization, I think)
I was baptized in Jesus' name on October 27 1955.
I had questions about how God could be three and be one at the same time.
It was explained to me that just as the whole ocean would not fit into a teacup, the understanding of the trinity would not fit into a human mind--we just had to take it by faith.
That day happened to be my 18th birthday.
Before going to bed I knelt and prayed.
Part of that prayer was for understanding.
As I was getting into bed, it "clicked" in my mind.
It was like someone turning on a light.
By the time I finished getting into bed and pulling the covers up, I had an "understanding" of God and Jesus.
I "saw" that God was one invisible spirit who filled all space and time.
That invisible spirit caused the virgin Mary to conceive.
The child born of Mary was indwelt by that invisible spirit.
That child born of Mary was somehow human and divine, flesh and deity but one being.
He could act, work, relate as a man and He could also act, move, and relate as God.
I could not explain all the various passages of Scripture relating to the subject of "the Godhead" but some how I knew that the one true God, the one revealed as Jehovah in the Old Testament:
came to earth in the person of Jesus,
lived among humans,
died, was buried, rose again, ascended to Heaven, and was exalted,
and lived in me as the Holy Spirit.
I considered it a "revelation" at the time and still do.
I also considered it a special birthday gift from the Lord on my 18th birthday.
Last edited by Sam; 10-15-2009 at 08:24 PM.
Reason: correct typo
Ok lets make it simple. If Jesus was God the Father in the Old Testament, and God the Father is the Father of Jesus is he not his own Father?
Is not this the revelation of "I and my Father are one"?
I won't go there, but, in my opinion,
Jesus is:
the child born,
the son given,
the one with the government on His shoulder,
the Angel/Messenger of great counsel,
the Mighty God (El Gibbor)
the Everlasting Father (Avi-'Ad)
the Prince of Peace (Sar-Shalom)
of Isaiah 9:6
Ok lets make it simple. If Jesus was God the Father in the Old Testament, and God the Father is the Father of Jesus is he not his own Father?
Is not this the revelation of "I and my Father are one"?
Again I would say no. While acknowledging Christ embodied the same essence as the Father YAHWEH Himself, neither Jesus nor the scriptures make the claim the Jesus, the Son of God was also His Father in heaven.
There are clear and distinguishable differences between Jesus, the Son of God, and his Father in Heaven.
Concerning the Father/Son distinction, Jason Dulle says it like this,
"It is a distinction between YHWH's continued existence beyond the incarnation, and the same YHWH's existence in the incarnation when He brought a human nature into metaphysical union with His divine nature."
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
On December 6, 1955 it "clicked" for me.
I was saved on March 28, 1955.
I later joined a local Baptist Church (GARB organization, I think)
I was baptized in Jesus' name on October 27 1955.
I had questions about how God could be three and be one at the same time.
It was explained to me that just as the whole ocean would not fit into a teacup, the understanding of the trinity would not fit into a human mind--we just had to take it by faith.
That day happened to be my 18th birthday.
Before going to bed I knelt and prayed.
Part of that prayer was for understanding.
As I was getting into bed, it "clicked" in my mind.
It was like someone turning on a light.
By the time I finished getting into bed and pulling the covers up, I had an "understanding" of God and Jesus.
I "saw" that God was one invisible spirit who filled all space and time.
That invisible spirit caused the virgin Mary to conceive.
The child born of Mary was indwelt by that invisible spirit.
That child born of Mary was somehow human and divine, flesh and deity but one being.
He could act, work, relate as a man and He could also act, move, and relate as God.
I could not explain all the various passages of Scripture relating to the subject of "the Godhead" but some how I knew that the one true God, the one revealed as Jehovah in the Old Testament:
came to earth in the person of Jesus,
lived among humans,
died, was buried, rose again, ascended to Heaven, and was exalted,
and lived in me as the Holy Spirit.
I considered it a "revelation" at the time and still do.
I also considered it a special birthday gift from the Lord on my 18th birthday.
A wonderful birthday gift indeed!
Two questions, This "Revelation", did you come to this truth from a Trinitarian mindset?
If so, which portions of your enlightenment is at odds with classical Trinitarian confession?
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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