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  #221  
Old 02-04-2019, 09:12 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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German article by Resch - Ante-Nicene references

An 1895 compilation of references is in German by Alfred Resch, this might add to the large list of early references that are on the second post of the PBF page.

German research assistance would be very helpful!

Pure Bible Forum
Matthew 28:19 -Ante-Nicene referencing (before Eusebius) - the Ehrman textual criticism discussion
[url]http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?983-Matthew-28-19-Ante-Nicene-referencing-(before-Eusebius)-the-Ehrman-textual-criticism-discussion

Quote:
Alfred Resch Research

Aussercanonische Paralleltexte zu den Evangelien:
[1. Heft] Textkritische und quellenkritische Grundlegungen.
[2. Heft] Paralleltexte zu Matthaeus und Marcus (1897)
https://books.google.com/books?id=CZMRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA393

Haithi Trust - (pull out the Matthew and Mark section for another copy like the Google pages)
Aussercanonische Paralleltexte zu den Evangelien / gesammelt und untersucht von Alfred Resch.
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001680492
Alfred Resch (1835-1912)
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu...%201835%2D1912

Four Matthew 28:19 sections, Turner indicated 14 pages are early references, possibly 398 to 412.
Matthew 28:19a is an earlier part of the verse.

p. 393-397 - Matthew 28:19a - a parallel with Mark 16:15
p. 398-406
p. 407-412 - heretical parallels - Turner emphasizes that even those with unusual doctrines accepted the pure Bible text
p. 413-427
More Resch writings, including the Logia.
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Searc...e=author&inst=

Quote:
John Turner Marshall (1850-1923) describes the Resch writing on Matthew 28:19

Criticial Review (1895)
http://books.google.com/books?id=qExKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA42
https://archive.org/stream/criticalr...e/n50/mode/2up
Archived and added to at:

PureBibleForum ( PBF)
Alfred Resch in 1895 compiles early ECW refeernces
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...=2255#post2255

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-04-2019 at 09:20 AM.
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  #222  
Old 02-04-2019, 11:20 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Bibel-lexikon: Realwörterbuch zum Handgebrauch für Geistliche und Gemeindeglieder (G) Bible Encyclopedia: Real Dictionary for Hand-held Use for Clergy and Church Members (1869) by Daniel Schenkel, says: “As for the question of the authenticity, that point betrays it all, so we must have the same already doubt on the ground that in the apostolic age not one used this baptism on those three names” (Rom. 6:3; Gal 3:27, Acts 2:38; 8, 16, see also Wittichen in the "Annals of German theology", VII, 336)
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  #223  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:59 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Bibel-lexikon: Realwörterbuch zum Handgebrauch für Geistliche und Gemeindeglieder (G) Bible Encyclopedia: Real Dictionary for Hand-held Use for Clergy and Church Members (1869) by Daniel Schenkel, says: “As for the question of the authenticity, that point betrays it all, so we must have the same already doubt on the ground that in the apostolic age not one used this baptism on those three names” (Rom. 6:3; Gal 3:27, Acts 2:38; 8, 16, see also Wittichen in the "Annals of German theology", VII, 336)
Daniel Schenkel (1813-1885)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Schenkel

was a bit of an unbeliever flake. He is referenced quite a bit here:

ARTICLE VII.
The Present Attitude of Evangelical Christianity Towards The Prominent Forms of Assault
Samuel Colcord. Bartlett, D.D. (1817-1898)
Professor in Chicago Theological Seminary
https://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/p...2_bartlett.pdf

Here is the publication.

BibelLexicon Realwörterbuch zum Handgebrauch für Geistliche und Gemeindeglieder (1869)
by Daniel Schenkel
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011538648 (3 volumes)
https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_2O08AAAAcAAJ/page/n4
https://books.google.com/books/about...d=su08AAAAcAAJ

Can you find the page? It looks like you are giving us a mangled English translation.

What secondary source did you use?
Copying a bibliography entry, without attribution, as if it was your own research, is still plagiarism.

And how about the real name of the Ferdinand Karl Wittichen (1832-1882) publication? And the date and page, or title of the article. That looks like an English translation of the publication name. What did he say?

Thanks!

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2019 at 02:20 AM.
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  #224  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:57 PM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

The Theological Workbook of the Bible (1873) p. 29 by R. R. (Ronald Ralph) Williams says: "Early baptism was in the name of Christ"
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  #225  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:39 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Ronald Ralph William - what century? what book?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
The Theological Workbook of the Bible (1873) p. 29 by R. R. (Ronald Ralph) Williams says: "Early baptism was in the name of Christ"
This reference is a doozy, more secondary sources and plagiarism problems.

Sometimes it is given longer, like this:

Quote:
WILLIAMS R.R. The command to baptize in Ma. 28:19 is thought to show the influence of a developed doctrine of God verging on Trinitarianism. Early baptism was in the name of Christ. The association of this Trinitarian conception with baptism suggests that baptism itself was felt to be an experience with a Trinitarian reference.
–Theological Wordbook of the Bible, p. 29.
However, we are a century off.

Ronald Ralph Williams (bishop) - (1906-1979)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Williams_(bishop)

And the book is not found. Maybe a different name?

Maybe the first reference is:

The Voice... (2005)
Oneil McQuick
https://books.google.com/books?id=J4fZeuyXWXEC&pg=PA78

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2019 at 11:56 PM.
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  #226  
Old 02-07-2019, 12:35 AM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

In 1877 Ernest Renan, scholar and philosopher, published (F) —Les Évangiles et la seconde génération chrétienne (The Gospels and the Second Generation of Christians): p. 197 “The baptismal formula was expanded [changed] to include in a rather syncretic form the three words of the sacramental theology of the time: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The germ of the dogma of the Trinity is thus deposited in a corner of the sacred page, and become fruitful.”
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  #227  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:33 AM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Yet he offers no proof. You can quote the man in the moon, Atilla the Hun, George Washington and the 3 stooges.

But unless they have manuscript evidence, it is nothing more than theological conjecture.
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  #228  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:36 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
In 1877 Ernest Renan, scholar and philosopher, published (F) —Les Évangiles et la seconde génération chrétienne (The Gospels and the Second Generation of Christians): p. 197 “The baptismal formula was expanded [changed] to include in a rather syncretic form the three words of the sacramental theology of the time: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The germ of the dogma of the Trinity is thus deposited in a corner of the sacred page, and become fruitful.”
Renan saw the Gospels as very late writings:

Quote:
The Life of Jesus (1864)
Ernest Renan
https://books.google.com/books?id=yRNKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA13

The last work of compilation, at least of the text which bears the name of Matthew, appears to have been done in one of the countries situated at the north-east of Palestine, such as Gaulonitis, Auranitis, Batanea, where many Christians took refuge at the time of the Roman war, where were found relatives of Jesus even in the second century, and where the first Galilean tendency was longer preserved than in other parts. p. 13

Neither was there any theology or creed. There were indefinite views respecting the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, from which, afterwards, were drawn the Trinity and the Incarna tion, but they were then only in a state of indeterminate imagery p. 213.
While Renan was very liberal he seems to have considered Matthew's words as authentic:

Quote:
Jesus Christ: a reply to m. Renan [in his Vie de Jésus] (1868)
Auguste Joseph Alphonse Gratry
https://books.google.com/books?id=vOACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA24

In the Gospel of St. Matthew, according to M. Renan, the only exact and authentic record of the discourses of Jesus, we find Him saying :
"Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” Matt, xxviii. 19.
Quote:
Matthew 28:19, Eusebius, and the lex orandi (1989)
H. Benedict Green
https://books.google.com/books?id=QIBGrDFGFv8C&pg=PA12
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...3BBFBB74E22706

Renan had nowhere implied that the hand that planted the seed of Trinitarian dogma in the gospel, whatever its cultic background, was any but the evangelist's own;
The Renan French of the 1877 book is here:

Les Évangiles et la seconde génération chrétienne : (1877)
Ernst Renan
https://archive.org/details/lesvangi...5rena/page/196

Basically, Renan was basically saying that people erred later in using the Matthew words as a a formula

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-07-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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  #229  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:25 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

St Matthew’s Gospel with the Parallel Passages by “James Stark” published in 1878. Stark was fiercely anti-trinitarian and believed in absolute monotheism, he said: “…These and other passages prove that Matthew’s formula for baptism has no support from other sacred writers and cannot therefore been spoken by Jesus” “James Stark” is a Pseudonym; he was a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh; only highly distinguish individuals can become a fellow of this selective science society; perhaps “James Stark” was the Rev. Philip Kelland or the Rev. George Laing.
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  #230  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:13 AM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Yet he offers no proof. You can quote the man in the moon, Atilla the Hun, George Washington and the 3 stooges.

But unless they have manuscript evidence, it is nothing more than theological conjecture.
The quotes are from people who have many years of study.
some of them are doctors in theology and others are actually teachers in religious universities.

I am not citing my local barber, my neighbor or any of the stooges, I am citing from learned individuals.
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