|
Tab Menu 1
Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun! |
|
|
02-04-2019, 09:12 AM
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
|
|
German article by Resch - Ante-Nicene references
An 1895 compilation of references is in German by Alfred Resch, this might add to the large list of early references that are on the second post of the PBF page.
German research assistance would be very helpful!
Pure Bible Forum
Matthew 28:19 -Ante-Nicene referencing (before Eusebius) - the Ehrman textual criticism discussion
[url]http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?983-Matthew-28-19-Ante-Nicene-referencing-(before-Eusebius)-the-Ehrman-textual-criticism-discussion
More Resch writings, including the Logia.
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Searc...e=author&inst=
Archived and added to at:
PureBibleForum ( PBF)
Alfred Resch in 1895 compiles early ECW refeernces
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...=2255#post2255
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-04-2019 at 09:20 AM.
|
02-04-2019, 11:20 PM
|
|
Yeshua is God
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,158
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Bibel-lexikon: Realwörterbuch zum Handgebrauch für Geistliche und Gemeindeglieder (G) Bible Encyclopedia: Real Dictionary for Hand-held Use for Clergy and Church Members (1869) by Daniel Schenkel, says: “As for the question of the authenticity, that point betrays it all, so we must have the same already doubt on the ground that in the apostolic age not one used this baptism on those three names” ( Rom. 6:3; Gal 3:27, Acts 2:38; 8, 16, see also Wittichen in the "Annals of German theology", VII, 336)
|
02-05-2019, 12:59 AM
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
Bibel-lexikon: Realwörterbuch zum Handgebrauch für Geistliche und Gemeindeglieder (G) Bible Encyclopedia: Real Dictionary for Hand-held Use for Clergy and Church Members (1869) by Daniel Schenkel, says: “As for the question of the authenticity, that point betrays it all, so we must have the same already doubt on the ground that in the apostolic age not one used this baptism on those three names” ( Rom. 6:3; Gal 3:27, Acts 2:38; 8, 16, see also Wittichen in the "Annals of German theology", VII, 336)
|
Daniel Schenkel (1813-1885)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Schenkel
was a bit of an unbeliever flake. He is referenced quite a bit here:
ARTICLE VII.
The Present Attitude of Evangelical Christianity Towards The Prominent Forms of Assault
Samuel Colcord. Bartlett, D.D. (1817-1898)
Professor in Chicago Theological Seminary
https://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/p...2_bartlett.pdf
Here is the publication.
BibelLexicon Realwörterbuch zum Handgebrauch für Geistliche und Gemeindeglieder (1869)
by Daniel Schenkel
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011538648 (3 volumes)
https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_2O08AAAAcAAJ/page/n4
https://books.google.com/books/about...d=su08AAAAcAAJ
Can you find the page? It looks like you are giving us a mangled English translation.
What secondary source did you use?
Copying a bibliography entry, without attribution, as if it was your own research, is still plagiarism.
And how about the real name of the Ferdinand Karl Wittichen (1832-1882) publication? And the date and page, or title of the article. That looks like an English translation of the publication name. What did he say?
Thanks!
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2019 at 02:20 AM.
|
02-05-2019, 09:57 PM
|
|
Yeshua is God
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,158
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
The Theological Workbook of the Bible (1873) p. 29 by R. R. (Ronald Ralph) Williams says: "Early baptism was in the name of Christ"
|
02-05-2019, 11:39 PM
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
|
|
Ronald Ralph William - what century? what book?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
The Theological Workbook of the Bible (1873) p. 29 by R. R. (Ronald Ralph) Williams says: "Early baptism was in the name of Christ"
|
This reference is a doozy, more secondary sources and plagiarism problems.
Sometimes it is given longer, like this:
Quote:
WILLIAMS R.R. The command to baptize in Ma. 28:19 is thought to show the influence of a developed doctrine of God verging on Trinitarianism. Early baptism was in the name of Christ. The association of this Trinitarian conception with baptism suggests that baptism itself was felt to be an experience with a Trinitarian reference.
–Theological Wordbook of the Bible, p. 29.
|
However, we are a century off.
Ronald Ralph Williams (bishop) - (1906-1979)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Williams_(bishop)
And the book is not found. Maybe a different name?
Maybe the first reference is:
The Voice... (2005)
Oneil McQuick
https://books.google.com/books?id=J4fZeuyXWXEC&pg=PA78
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2019 at 11:56 PM.
|
02-07-2019, 12:35 AM
|
|
Yeshua is God
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,158
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
In 1877 Ernest Renan, scholar and philosopher, published (F) —Les Évangiles et la seconde génération chrétienne (The Gospels and the Second Generation of Christians): p. 197 “The baptismal formula was expanded [changed] to include in a rather syncretic form the three words of the sacramental theology of the time: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The germ of the dogma of the Trinity is thus deposited in a corner of the sacred page, and become fruitful.”
|
02-07-2019, 02:33 AM
|
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
Posts: 2,941
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Yet he offers no proof. You can quote the man in the moon, Atilla the Hun, George Washington and the 3 stooges.
But unless they have manuscript evidence, it is nothing more than theological conjecture.
|
02-07-2019, 05:36 PM
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
In 1877 Ernest Renan, scholar and philosopher, published (F) —Les Évangiles et la seconde génération chrétienne (The Gospels and the Second Generation of Christians): p. 197 “The baptismal formula was expanded [changed] to include in a rather syncretic form the three words of the sacramental theology of the time: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The germ of the dogma of the Trinity is thus deposited in a corner of the sacred page, and become fruitful.”
|
Renan saw the Gospels as very late writings:
Quote:
The Life of Jesus (1864)
Ernest Renan
https://books.google.com/books?id=yRNKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA13
The last work of compilation, at least of the text which bears the name of Matthew, appears to have been done in one of the countries situated at the north-east of Palestine, such as Gaulonitis, Auranitis, Batanea, where many Christians took refuge at the time of the Roman war, where were found relatives of Jesus even in the second century, and where the first Galilean tendency was longer preserved than in other parts. p. 13
Neither was there any theology or creed. There were indefinite views respecting the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, from which, afterwards, were drawn the Trinity and the Incarna tion, but they were then only in a state of indeterminate imagery p. 213.
|
While Renan was very liberal he seems to have considered Matthew's words as authentic:
Quote:
Jesus Christ: a reply to m. Renan [in his Vie de Jésus] (1868)
Auguste Joseph Alphonse Gratry
https://books.google.com/books?id=vOACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA24
In the Gospel of St. Matthew, according to M. Renan, the only exact and authentic record of the discourses of Jesus, we find Him saying :
"Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” Matt, xxviii. 19.
|
The Renan French of the 1877 book is here:
Les Évangiles et la seconde génération chrétienne : (1877)
Ernst Renan
https://archive.org/details/lesvangi...5rena/page/196
Basically, Renan was basically saying that people erred later in using the Matthew words as a a formula
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-07-2019 at 05:51 PM.
|
02-07-2019, 11:25 PM
|
|
Yeshua is God
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,158
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
St Matthew’s Gospel with the Parallel Passages by “James Stark” published in 1878. Stark was fiercely anti-trinitarian and believed in absolute monotheism, he said: “…These and other passages prove that Matthew’s formula for baptism has no support from other sacred writers and cannot therefore been spoken by Jesus” “James Stark” is a Pseudonym; he was a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh; only highly distinguish individuals can become a fellow of this selective science society; perhaps “James Stark” was the Rev. Philip Kelland or the Rev. George Laing.
|
02-08-2019, 12:13 AM
|
|
Yeshua is God
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,158
|
|
Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta
Yet he offers no proof. You can quote the man in the moon, Atilla the Hun, George Washington and the 3 stooges.
But unless they have manuscript evidence, it is nothing more than theological conjecture.
|
The quotes are from people who have many years of study.
some of them are doctors in theology and others are actually teachers in religious universities.
I am not citing my local barber, my neighbor or any of the stooges, I am citing from learned individuals.
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:26 PM.
| |