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02-02-2019, 08:02 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Brother Avery, are you familiar with the following?
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A snippet of the Lee Woodard info is placed online here:
http://www.washington-codex.org/washington_codex.htm
It seems wildly speculative in looking at some markings. Apparently you find out more if you buy a $70 book.
The authorship dates other than Matthew are very late, a bit wild.
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-02-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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02-02-2019, 10:48 PM
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Yeshua is God
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,158
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Commentary on Matthew (1865) p. 558 by professor of theology, John Peter Lange
Here Lange quotes Meyer, an eminent commentator, as follows: “No trace is to be found of the employment of these words (the name [titles] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) by the Apostolic Church.”
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02-02-2019, 11:58 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
Commentary on Matthew (1865) p. 558 by professor of theology, John Peter Lange, Here Lange quotes Meyer, an eminent commentator, as follows: “No trace is to be found of the employment of these words (the name [titles] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) by the Apostolic Church.”
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First, John Lange (translated in the 1863 2nd English edition, from the 1857 German edition of the Theologisch-homiletisches Bibelwerk) was dissenting from Meyer.
To make this even worse, Lange says that Meyer was defending these as the words of Jesus properly quoted in Matthew, and Lange agreed.
Quote:
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Meyer, however, is right, in his opposition to De Wette, Strauss, and others, who have impugned the historical truth of this direction of Christ.
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In other words, Meyer was simply saying that the words in Matthew 29:19 was not a formula for baptism. To hide this from the readers, FZ omitted these words from Meyer:
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“Jesus does not, assuredly, dictate the words which are to be employed in the administration of baptism."
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In other words, both Meyer and Lange are fully supporting the words of Matthew 28:19 being original scripture. Lange is more towards it being a formula for baptism, while Meyer writes against that idea, so we would agree with Meyer.
As I have said, when you read FZ, none dare call this scholarship.
However, he does help us by leading us to men who wrote interesting material.
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2019 at 12:02 AM.
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02-03-2019, 02:08 AM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta
Steve is right. The quotes are interesting.
FZ does do his homework.
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Be careful. We see again and again that FZ is not familiar with the primary source, and he plagiarizes from secondary sources, quoting exact words from another without attrbution.
Here is an example:
Remarkable Biblical Discovery: “The Name” of God According to the Scriptures (2009)
William Phillips Hall
https://www.apostolic.edu/remarkable...he-scriptures/
And this was published in 1929, here you can see the original page:
Quote:
Remarkable Biblical Discovery: “The Name” of God According to the Scriptures (2009)
William Phillips Hall
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...iew=1up;seq=69
Lange’s “Commentary on Matthew” (p. 558) quotes Meyer, an eminent commentator, as follows: “No trace is to be found of the employment of these words [“the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”] by the Apostolic Church.”
We can easily see that this got passed down to FZ, who gave us without attribution:
Commentary on Matthew (1865) p. 558 by professor of theology, John Peter Lange
Here Lange quotes Meyer, an eminent commentator, as follows: “No trace is to be found of the employment of these words (the name [titles] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) by the Apostolic Church.”
title page
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...view=1up;seq=1
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Note that William Phillips Hall (1864-1937) did not dispute the authenticity of the words in Matthew 28:19, the section is titled:
THE ORIGINAL APOSTOLIC INTERPRETATION OF THE WORDS,
“THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT”.
And it looks like his book was reprinted recently in some manner as:
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2019 at 02:51 AM.
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02-03-2019, 02:37 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Steve, your analytical work is appreciated.
Ideally, we would all have a large theological library, and the time, to read and think ourselves full. Sadly, this is not the case.
A snippet of a quote can easily be taken out of context. Or, it can be assigned value the author did not intend.
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02-03-2019, 07:22 AM
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quotation games
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta
Steve, your analytical work is appreciated. Ideally, we would all have a large theological library, and the time, to read and think ourselves full. Sadly, this is not the case. A snippet of a quote can easily be taken out of context. Or, it can be assigned value the author did not intend.
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Yep. We have seen seen many little quote tricks. Including simply accepting a secondary or tertiary source and not even checking the primary source. And holding back the salient information.
Or, even if essentially accurate, the quote can be of little value.
Many of the scholarly opponents of the traditional text are liberals and unbelievers, often from the German schools. This includes men who deny the resurrection, or who would snip not just the phrase in 28:19 but a whole section of verses, or even who believe that Matthew is a late forgery anyway.
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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02-03-2019, 07:45 AM
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AFF history on Mathew 28:19
For the record, here are the four AFF threads I have bookmarked.
Earlier on the Good News Cafe - courtesy of Archive.org, one is easily available.
Here is where I have a chunk of ECW info, and when more is added, including a review of manuscript evidences, it will be on this thread or marked on the top as a sister thread.
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2019 at 08:23 AM.
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02-03-2019, 09:51 AM
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James R. Lithgow - Oct, 1855 in The Herald
James R. Lithgow, Oct. 1855 in The Herald is mentioned in various writings that work with A. Ploughman (or maybe Boughman, per some inquiries by Randall Duane Houghes.)
A little treat!
Here is the 1855 letter (there seems to be one earlier too, I'll search, however it does not seem to be published in the 1854 or 1855 Herald). This looks to be a Christadelphian publication.
Quote:
The Herald of the Kingdom, Oct 1855 issue, p. 232
http://literature.christadelphianres...Volume%205.PDF
Anolecta Episiolaria.
Work Cut Out for Slack Times.
My Dear and Respected Brother:
— Have you overlooked my queries? You promised last winter to attend to them.
No. 1. Is prayer to Christ scriptural ?
No. 2. Is not a person "baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of »he Holy Spirit,” when he is “baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ?” It appears to me somewhat strange that the former “formula" is but once mentioned, whereas the iatter, or words nearly equivalent, occur in many places: and, indeed, you never read of a person being baptized in, or into, any other name than the name of Jesus. His name, therefore, it seems to me, is the “name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,” into which believers are commanded to be baptized. It is not clear to my mind how a man can be said to have been baptized into, in, or by, the name of Jesus Christ, when the name of Jesus does not occur in the words spoken at his baptism.
...
James R.. Lithgow.
Halifax. Nova Scotia, May 28, 1855:
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Very well written, and in 1855!
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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02-03-2019, 08:01 PM
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Yeshua is God
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending
Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (1867) by Roberts, Alexander Rev. and James Donaldson. “Justin Martyr expanded the biblical baptismal formula to “in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit”
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02-03-2019, 10:37 PM
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commentary on the Justin Martyr 28:19 reference
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (1867) by Roberts, Alexander Rev. and James Donaldson. “Justin Martyr expanded the biblical baptismal formula to “in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit”
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Justin Martyr expanded the normal Matthew 28:19, he added God and Lord of the Universe to the Father, and expanded Son to "our Saviour Jesus Christ." This expansion is discussed in a few spots.
Once again, though, you are plagiarizing secondary sources and giving errant references.
There is no record of this being an 1867 commentary (it sounds recent.)
Here is the page that is referenced from the 1867 edition.
Ante-Nicene Christian Library; Translations Of The Writings Of The Fathers Down To A.D. 325,
Volume 2: Justin Martyr and Athenagoras (1867)
https://archive.org/details/AnteNice...ryV02/page/n71
As to who made the "expanded the biblical baptismal formula.." comment, and when, that remains a puzzle. Likely after 2,000 from one of the folks who want to mangle the Bible.
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And here is the reference on PBF:
Pure Bible Forum
Matthew 28:19 -baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...the-Holy-Ghost
Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2019 at 11:19 PM.
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