Book Discussion: Pagan Christianity - Page 6

Amanah · #51 11-02-2011, 06:39 AM

Jay your comments are always welcome, and don't worry about being bit, in fact, if you are right, then you can bite back if bitten

Jay · #52 11-02-2011, 06:46 AM

Thank you so much. I will try not to invoke that on this thread.

Nitehawk013 · #53 11-02-2011, 08:44 AM

What remnant of tithing existed in Paul's writings? Teh man said he worked himself so that he wouldn't have to take any money form the churches. He appeals to them to give freewill offerings for the needs of the church.

Paul is the anti-tithe. How does one find any remnant or trace of tithing in his epistles?

Amanah · #54 11-02-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

What remnant of tithing existed in Paul's writings? Teh man said he worked himself so that he wouldn't have to take any money form the churches. He appeals to them to give freewill offerings for the needs of the church.

Paul is the anti-tithe. How does one find any remnant or trace of tithing in his epistles?

true

Nitehawk013 · #55 11-02-2011, 09:06 AM

If tithing were meant for the NT, Paul would be the most logical man to lead the charge! He founded multiple churches, and then wrote the Epistles to explain to them how to continue living for God, yet never mentions one word about paying tithes. These churches were NOT all jews who had recieved the revelation of CHrist as Messiah. They were gentiles. Gentiles, who in most cases, would have been unfamiliar with the idea of giving a tithe. They were the ones most in need of being taught the "doctrine" and yet Paul says nothing to them about it.

Tithing is fear based financing. It is basically admitting you don't have any faith in your own saints to give enough to support the needs of the church. So when faith doesn't work...you switch to fear to basically engage in theocratic extortion: give me your money or you'll go to hell!

TGBTG · #56 11-02-2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

What remnant of tithing existed in Paul's writings? Teh man said he worked himself so that he wouldn't have to take any money form the churches. He appeals to them to give freewill offerings for the needs of the church.

Paul is the anti-tithe. How does one find any remnant or trace of tithing in his epistles?

1 Cor 9
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Perhaps,verse 13 - 14 is where tithe proponents see traces of the tithe teaching.

But we can also see in verse 15, Paul decided NOT to use the church's givings for his welfare, unlike the levites in the OT who had no choice but to live off of the people's givings. So even if Paul is teaching a tithe, the principles of the OT sure did NOT apply to Paul.

We see the same scenario again in 2 Thess 3:

2 Thess 3

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Paul was telling the Thessalonians that he would rather work with his hands than live off of them. Not because he did not have the power to, but he chose not to.

Now, we know that in the OT, the levites could NOT choose not to live off of tithes. This in itself shows that the principle by which ministers of the gospel are to live off of the gospel is SURELY not the same principle of the levites living off of tithes.

My take in it all though, is we as Christians have to have a giving attitude. The whole gospel is based on God giving us his Son.

So if we have a cheerful attitude towards giving, we would not be hung up on whether we tithe or not, as long as we learn to give cheerfully.

For the pastors who teach "tithe or hell", there sure ain't no scripture for that one...lol

Aquila · #57 11-02-2011, 09:44 AM

I firmly believe in grace giving and financial vows. I encourage a vow to pay 10% (a tithe) between the individual and God... but if they don't have the faith for it, I'd never demand it. I'll ask that they give cheerfully as they have purposed in their hearts. The principle of sowing and reaping does come into play. They that sow sparingly will reap sparingly. Those who sow bountifully will reap bountifully. Giving should be a sacrificial act of faith. This means that for many giving more than 10% should be encouraged.

It should be remembered that a vow to pay any amount over a period of time (a pledge before God) is just as binding as any tithe teaching. The difference is that the offering (percentage or amount) originates from the believers themselves as they are convicted by God in their own heart.

Deuteronomy 23:21
"If you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay fulfilling it, for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and you will be guilty of sin.

God expects that we not neglect to pay our vows (pledges). To delay in doing so or to neglect our vow is sin.

Also, there is a divine promise to those who pay their vows:

Psalm 50:14-15
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
15and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me."

If one is faithful to their vow, God promises to deliver in the day of trouble.

Amanah · #58 11-02-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I firmly believe in grace giving and financial vows. I encourage a vow to pay 10% (a tithe) between the individual and God... but if they don't have the faith for it, I'd never demand it. I'll ask that they give cheerfully as they have purposed in their hearts. The principle of sowing and reaping does come into play. They that sow sparingly will reap sparingly. Those who sow bountifully will reap bountifully. Giving should be a sacrificial act of faith. This means that for many giving more than 10% should be encouraged.

It should be remembered that a vow to pay any amount over a period of time (a pledge before God) is just as binding as any tithe teaching. The difference is that the rule originates from the believer themselves as they are convicted by God in their own heart.

Deuteronomy 23:21
"If you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay fulfilling it, for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and you will be guilty of sin.

God expects that we not neglect to pay our vows (pledges). To delay in doing so or to neglect our vow is sin.

how would this play out in a house church?

Aquila · #59 11-02-2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

how would this play out in a house church?

There are many many ways to do this. Most house church elders are not paid elders. The Apostle (Senior Pastor) of the network might choose to collect offerings at the larger gatherings. That's how ours works. And our Senior Pastor doesn't believe in tithing either (and we have a massive facility on the edge of Centerville and Kettering Ohio.

Some house church elders who are not in a network with a Senior Pastor simply take the collection towards their ministry (supplimenting their income) and put a percentage in a benevolence account.

One of my favorite models is "giver to getter giving". In independent house churches members are admonished to set aside a vowed amount to give to those in need that they encounter throughout the week. For example, I might vow $20 dollars a week and set it aside. I keep that money set aside for the sole purpose of blessing another. If I see a woman with four kids in a grociery store buying groceries, I might take that money and buy her groceries with it. Or if I see a family in a restaurant I might pick up their check. The idea is to bless another and witness to Christ's goodness in your life and encourage that they too trust in Him.

You'll find MANY opinions and methods on this throughout the house church movement. Some are just as adamant about tithing (especially affiliated with DAWN Ministries) as traditional churches are. Those house church elders suppliment their income through the tithes and offerings.

The virtue of these methods is that they are voluntary in most cases and the funds typically go directly to the minister and those in need. The cost of a building, staff, etc. doesn't drain from the amount given in smaller house church networks.

Most house church networks see no issue with voluntary giving in whatever model is accepted by the local bodies. They have faith that God will provide for his work through others giving cheerfully and without compulsion. If you think about it the largest charities in America function the same way. For example, the United Way doesn't require a 10% donation to sustain it's efforts and assistance to those charities affiliated with it's program.

Be of good courage and have faith! There is a JOY in seeing God provide for His work through pure generocity and loving desire to give among the saints. Far more joy than paying the bills with money REQUIRED of the congregation.

Aquila · #60 11-02-2011, 10:12 AM

Another principle in grace giving is the "every man" principle...

1 Corinthians 16:2
King James Version (KJV)
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Notice "every member" was to lay something aside as an offering to God to assist the work of God (in this case relieving the saints in Jerusalem).

So everyone is encouraged to pray and give something or make a vow (pledge) to give a certain percentage or amount over a period of time (typically yearly or quarterly) to the work of God. The amount or percentage is between the individual and God.

It's free will giving in accordance to one's faith and desire to demonstrate love towards the things of God. And yes BLESSINGS do come because the spirit behind the giving is right (joy, love, and cheerfulness). Those who sow bountifully... reap bountifully! Praise God!

God will richly bless a man who only voluntarily gives $20 dollars out of loving and cheerful heart over a man who is required to give 10% of everything and is fearful and perhaps giving grudgingly because he was told he's robbing God if he doesn't.

It's the spirit and motivation behind the giving that gets God's attention... not the percentage or the amount. When a "tither" expresses stress an anxiety about their giving I admonish them to stop "tithing" and seek God for an amount to give that resonates in their spirit. I tell them that when they begin giving that amount (even if it's less than 10%) they will see the grace and blessings of God begin to flow. And guess what... I've seen it happen. Grace giving can unlock the windows of Heaven. It's not long until they are wanting to give far more time and resources than when they tithed with joy, expectancy, and praise.