What Was The Logos?

[Sam]

Bro. Drysdale goes back into Apostolic history and quotes some of the old timers:

LET THE FOUNDERS SPEAK

Many of the early pioneers of Oneness truth recognized and taught the concept of God in Christ in the Old Testament. It was part and parcel of the message. It did not receive as much attention as the New Testament "God in Christ" truth due to the fact that the battle lines with Trinitarians were primarily drawn on New Testament territory. Nevertheless they recognized the important truths concerning the Jehovah Angel as the Word of God. The neglect of this aspect of Oneness has resulted in much needless controversy with Trinitarians, where time might have been more profitably spent. Oneness exponents of today need to realize, as their forebearers did, that the "idealistic Son doctrine" will never adequately answer all the texts presented to us on the pre-existent Christ by our opponents. The entire oneness message will never come into complete harmony without this segment of the Truth being fully integrated into our theology. Let us now examine the record of our early writers.

G.T. HAYWOOD

Bishop Haywood, first Bishop of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, was a theologian, journalist, composer and artist. A genius by the definition of the term. His theological works on Oneness were among the first to appear. Concerning the Angel of Jehovah as the Word, he wrote:

"Elohim is God, the living God, the power of creation (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17; Rev. 3:4-11). He first assumes a creature form, though spiritual in nature (Gen. 12:7, 32:24-30, Isa. 6:1, 5); afterwards, the human form for the purpose of redeeming mankind. (John 1:14, Heb. 2:9, 14, 16, 17; Phil. 2:7, Rom. 8:3). That Elohim, in his creature form spiritually, who appeared to the Patriarchs and Prophets is the same who appeared in a human form 1,900 years ago to Israel can be clearly seen by reading the following Scriptures: Gen. 17:13, Ex. 6:23, with John 8:56-58, Isa. 6:1, 2, 5, 9, 10 with John 12 :39-40, 41, 44, 45." (G.T. Haywood, Divine Names and Titles of Jehovah, p. 7-8).

"When Jacob wrestled with the Angel he sought to obtain the secret name, but was prohibited... The children of Israel were led by the Angel of the Lord and Jehovah said, 'Beware of him...for my name is in him' (Ex. 23:21). To Manoah, the Jehovah Angel replied, 'Why asketh thou after my name, seeing it is secret (margin, Wonderful)?' (Judges 13:18). The Prophet Isaiah declared that his name shall be called 'Wonderful' (Isa. 9:6). From these scriptures it can be clearly seen the Jehovah had a name to be revealed which was above all his names! There is not a shadow of a doubt but that the angel that appeared to the Virgin of Nazareth was the Jehovah Angel of old who bore that "Wonderful' name. It was there that he had finished his journey over the hills of time and deposited that secret name in the bosom of her who was 'highly favoured of God.' ..The Word was God from the beginning (John 1:1-4) and when the Word became flesh, it was given a name that 'is above every name,' for he there and then 'magnified his Word' above all His name. His name shall be called Jesus!" (Haywood, p. 13-14).

This is from page 189 of Eld. Drysdale's book

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JOHN PATERSON

In 1920 John Paterson wrote his classic Oneness Treatise entitled "Revelation of Jesus Christ." This was used as a textbook in early Oneness circles and was printed by both G.T. Haywood and A.D. Urshan. It has been reprinted by Word Aflame Press under the Title "God in Christ Jesus. Bro. Paterson, whom I knew, presented me with a personally autographed copy of his book when he first reprinted it. I quote now from this Oneness pioneer's masterful work which contains over 800 scripture references:

"The visible being who appeared to Jacob and declared himself to be God, and who was recognized by Jacob as God, is variously described in the Bible as 'the Angel of Jehovah' (over 50 references), 'the Angel of the Covenant' (Mal. 3:1, 1 Cor 10:9), and 'the Angel who can refuse to pardon iniquity, because the name of Jehovah is in Him' (Ex. 23:21, Psalm 2:12). Surely no one will deny the Power to forgive, or the right to refuse pardon, belongs solely to God. Who is this Angel if he is not the pre-existent Christ? ...Likewise, the fact that Christ was not 'just another angel' did not prevent Him from being the Angel of God's Presence and the Angel of the covenant who 'suddenly came to His Temple' (as foretold in Malachi 3:1 and fulfilled in John 2:13-16)" (John Paterson, God in Christ Jesus, p. 48-49).

John Paterson's book "The Real Truth About Baptism in Jesus' Name" has been in circulation over 50 years. It is considered the most popular and widely decimated Oneness book of all time. On page 13 we read:

"God gives a fearful warning against trifling with His name in the Person of His Son when he says concerning the Angel of the Covenant, 'Beware of Him. And obey His voice, provoke Him not' Why? 'for my name is in Him' (Ex. 23:21). Every Bible student knows that He was the Lord Jesus Christ" (John Paterson, The Real Truth About Baptism in Jesus Name, p. 13-14).

FRANK J. EWART

Bro. Ewart was the first to see the light on Water Baptism in Jesus' Name as the fulfillment of Matthew 28:19. Back in 1913 he began baptizing in Jesus' name those first Oneness believers. He was also an articulate author. Concerning the Pre-existent Christ, he writes:

"There is not a single scripture that asserts Jesus existed eternally as a Son. He is called 'the Word,' 'God's Wisdom,' 'Back in the Beginning,' but never God's Son. See John 1:1, Prov. 8:22-31... He asserts that His existence was inseparable from the One True God. He asserted that back in the beginning he was in 'the bosom of the Father.' It is written in Zechariah that he was 'God's Fellow.' Micah said the babe of Bethlehem was 'from everlasting.' Isaiah says He was 'the Everlasting Father'..." (Frank Ewart, Revelation of Jesus Christ, p. 37).

Bro. Ewart recognized the "Word" or "God's Fellow" to be the embodiment of the invisible Father back in "the beginning" and who would later become the "Babe of Bethlehem."
C.H. YADON

C.H. Yadon, a well revered Oneness Pioneer, had reprinted a remarkable book entitled "Jehovah-Jesus." This book was originally written by one R.D. Weeks. For years this book was the principal Godhead work circulated by the United Pentecostal Church. Often quoted out of context, and distorted grossly by enemies of Oneness, the book fell into disfavour, and has not been reprinted in years. However it contained a very thorough exposition of the Angel of Jehovah as the Pre-Existent Christ and the embodiment of the Father. He wrote:

"It was the same divine 'Angel,' the 'God of Israel,' that was seen by Moses and the elders of Israel on Mount Sinai, and who spoke to them there. We are told that 'no man hath seen God at any time,' that is, God as a Spirit. What they saw must have been the Angel Jehovah, the same who 'spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto a friend' -- The Lord, (Jehovah) who spoke to Moses not in a vision, nor in a dream, but mouth to mouth, even apparently, whose 'similitude' he beheld. He was a created being, because 'seen' and talked with 'mouth to mouth' and ;face to face' yet also Jehovah, God Himself. He was the Spiritual Rock, the 'angel' that was with the Israelites in the wilderness, which 'Rock was Christ'" (C.H. Yadon, Jehovah-Jesus, p. 51).

This is from pages 190-191 of Eld. Drysdale's book

[Sam]

more from our elders:

THEODORE FITCH

In the early 1930's the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared to Theodore Fitch, who was a Trinitarian, and revealed the Oneness of the Godhead to him. Rev. Fitch immediately set about writing his book "The Deity of Jesus." It is still the most comprehensive work ever published on the Oneness. Fitch wrote many other books on the Oneness which enjoyed wide circulation among believers. I quote from "The Deity of Jesus" page 4:

"The 'Angel of the Lord' represented the Great Eternal Spirit that filled the Universe. The Spirit of God was present everywhere. The Angel 'Person' of God was God in One Place. Please notice that everytime the Angel of the Lord appeared or spoke to anyone it was God Himself 'in person'... Before the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary, the Lord God existed in two definite ways. God was manifested as an Angelic Spirit 'Person' and as an omnipresent Spirit, that is present everywhere all the time. His 'Person' was in the form of a man, and His eternal Spirit was without form, body or parts" (Theodore Fitch, The Deity of Jesus, Pentecostal Publishing House, Hazelwood, MO n.d., p. 4).

"Before the incarnation, the fullness of God dwell in a Spirit body which was in the form of a man. This beautiful angel body was made flesh by the power of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. This made the God-Angel a God-man... If the Word or 'Person' of God was made flesh, then the Father is the Son and the Son is the Father.. The Word that was God, was 'made over' into a flesh man (John 1:14). When God the Word was made flesh, he became a Son, but still remained God, the Word. Though a change was made in the substance of His body, he still remained the same Person... The angel Person of the Lord from Heaven is now called the Son of God" (Fitch, p. 22,23).

OSCAR VOUGA

Bro. Vouga's popular little book "Our Gospel Message" has this to say concerning the Son of God and his Pre-existence as the Word of God on p. 28:

"The Son of God was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary. (Matt. 1:18-25) - The son of David of the tribe of Judah. 'In the beginning (He) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...all things were made by Him; and without him was not anything made that was made.' John 1:1-3. He was in the form of God (Phil. 2:6). He was the Body of Heaven that Moses and Aaron, with the elders of Israel, saw. (Ex. 24:10). It was He who talked with Abraham (Gen. 17:1), wrestled with Jacob (Gen. 32:24-30), was and is the creator of all things. '...all things were created by Him and for Him' Col. 1:16

"'But made himself of no reputation (Nay, he stripped Himself of glory - Weymouth), and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men,' Phil. 2:7. He left the glory of the Father, that is stripped Himself of divine glory, but not of deity, and was made flesh... He is now glorified with the Father with the glory He had before the world was (John 17:5). (Oscar Vouga, Our Gospel Message, p. 28).

The book carries an endorsement from Howard A. Goss, founding father of both the Assemblies of God and the United Pentecostal Church. Bro. Vouga's exposition of the Godhead on pages 27 to 29 of his book is in my opinion one of the very best ever written

[Sam]

A more recent teaching, this time from Bro. Gordon Magee.

GORDON MAGEE

"Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus" is the famous little book by the well known Apostle to Ireland, Gordon Magee. On page 7 of the original edition published by the author (It has been changed in the revised edition published by Word Aflame Press), we read,

"'Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.' Or in other words, before Jesus was born with his human nature He was the divine visible equation of the invisible God. He was originally in the form of God and thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he made himself of no reputation, 'He took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.' This being, who prior to His physical birth, was in the very form of God -- the full equation in a majestic form of the invisible God -- This Being, God, at His Incarnation took upon himself the likeness of men. He assumed human nature at his incarnation, but did not cease to be God..." (Gordon Magee, Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus, n.d., p. 7).

[Sam]

This is how Eld. Drysdale quotes Gordon Magee's original work:

"...in other words, before Jesus was born with his human nature He was the divine visible equation of the invisible God. He was originally in the form of God and thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he made himself of no reputation, 'He took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.' This being, who prior to His physical birth, was in the very form of God -- the full equation in a majestic form of the invisible God -- This Being, God, at His Incarnation took upon himself the likeness of men. He assumed human nature at his incarnation, but did not cease to be God..." (Gordon Magee, Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus, n.d., p.

This is how it appears in my copy of the book as published by WAP
"...In other words, before Jesus was born with His human nature He was the invisible God. He was in the form of God, but He “took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:7). At His incarnation God took upon Himself the likeness of men. He assumed human nature at His incarnation but did not cease to be God..." page 14, copyright 1988, 2001 edition

[Michael The Disciple]

Sam,

Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I know you also love this truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sam

This is how Eld. Drysdale quotes Gordon Magee's original work:

"...in other words, before Jesus was born with his human nature He was the divine visible equation of the invisible God. He was originally in the form of God and thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he made himself of no reputation, 'He took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.' This being, who prior to His physical birth, was in the very form of God -- the full equation in a majestic form of the invisible God -- This Being, God, at His Incarnation took upon himself the likeness of men. He assumed human nature at his incarnation, but did not cease to be God..." (Gordon Magee, Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus, n.d., p.

This is how it appears in my copy of the book as published by WAP
"...In other words, before Jesus was born with His human nature He was the invisible God. He was in the form of God, but He “took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:7). At His incarnation God took upon Himself the likeness of men. He assumed human nature at His incarnation but did not cease to be God..." page 14, copyright 1988, 2001 edition

The WAP watered it down didnt they?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The WAP watered it down didnt they?

maybe it was just the personal belief of the one who edited it showing through.

I had an article that appeared in the Pentecostal Herald on two different occasions. Once in the January 1965 edition and again in the February 1973 edition. In it I said something about 3000 souls being "converted and baptized" on the Day of Pentecost. That was the way it appeared in the 1965 issue. When it reappeared in the 1973 issue it said "saved and baptized." I guess it was a different editor or assistant between 1965 and 1973. In 1965 "converted and baptized" agreed with the articles of faith. In 1973 "saved and baptized" agrees with the way I believe now but did not believe then. I was amazed in 1973 when I saw the way it was edited. Maybe there was a closet One-stepper on the staff in 1973.

[DaveC519]

Hello all,

Hmmm... interesting viewpoints. My personal viewpoint is that- apart from the Incarnation- God has no "visible" form whatsoever. What has been popularly termed as OT theophanies/christophanies were simply angelic appearances. The "man" who wrestled with Jacob was literally an angel (Hos 12:4, etc.).

I believe all passages which might allude to humans having a theophanic encounter must be interpreted in light of Ex 33:20- for a human to actually behold God would mean certain death. He dwells in light (the divine attribute of glory) which no man can even approach (1Tim 6:16). Therefore, if someone in Scripture- such as Jacob- said that they "saw" God, but lived to tell the tale, means that in reality they didn't really see God himself, or even a "spirit" form of God, for God has no visible form except his human existence.

Historically, the appropriation by Christians of the 2nd Temple intermediary theophanic motif was first made by Justin. He was the one who initially identified the historic Jesus of Nazareth as the Angel of YHWH and with other intermediary figures- such as the Logos/Memra. This line of thinking later gave rise to the more fully developed doctrine of Logos-Christology.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Dave

[QUOTE

Hmmm... interesting viewpoints. My personal viewpoint is that- apart from the Incarnation- God has no "visible" form whatsoever. What has been popularly termed as OT theophanies/christophanies were simply angelic appearances. The "man" who wrestled with Jacob was literally an angel (Hos 12:4, etc.).

I believe all passages which might allude to humans having a theophanic encounter must be interpreted in light of Ex 33:20- for a human to actually behold God would mean certain death. He dwells in light (the divine attribute of glory) which no man can even approach (1Tim 6:16). Therefore, if someone in Scripture- such as Jacob- said that they "saw" God, but lived to tell the tale, means that in reality they didn't really see God himself, or even a "spirit" form of God, for God has no visible form except his human existence.

The thing your view does not account for is it negates both the belief of those who experienced the encounters and also the way scripture was written to describe them.

Example: What did JACOB believe he saw? What did MOSES believe he saw? They would know better what they believed about what they saw than we living thousands of years later would.

The inspired scriptures are giving US a historical witness of what such men believed THEY saw. I doubt they would agree with the common view today that they really did not see what they said they saw.

Jacob on his deathbed told his sons The ANGEL was his ELOHIM. If you look at the context of Hosea 12 it very plainy tells who the Angel Jacob wrestled was.

EVEN THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS! Verse 5.

It/he was certainly an Angel. But what Angel? Just any of millions?

9: In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

Historically, the appropriation by Christians of the 2nd Temple intermediary theophanic motif was first made by Justin. He was the one who initially identified the historic Jesus of Nazareth as the Angel of YHWH and with other intermediary figures- such as the Logos/Memra. This line of thinking later gave rise to the more fully developed doctrine of Logos-Christology.

Justins view is not important to what I am teaching here. I have not studied his doctrine other than a few paragraphs. I and others are taking the evidence of scripture that proves Jesus pre existed as the Logos John spoke of. If he believed that part of the message good for him. In that he had more light than todays Oneness. If he distorted it to teach two gods thats a pity.

Logod/Memra certainly cannot be ignored as thats what was being taught in the assemblies Jesus attended growing up.

And most powerful proof against the common Oneness belief is it does not address the fact that in the Tanakh there WAS a being who according to John the apostle was BOTH WITH GOD AND WAS GOD.

3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

To say that these verses only refer to the spoken word of thought or plan of Elohim passes over the fact John gives personality (him) to the Logos. The personality of Elohim himself!

The Logos as interpreted by John the apostle was a him not merely a spoken word or thought or plan. This leaves us with only one thing in the Tanakh that was with God and was God.

The angel/messenger. That is Logos Christology. That is what John believed.

[TroubleMaker]

I just saw the question in the thread and thought I should answer.

It's the thing we use to display our church's name on our letterhead, outside our office, and so forth...a catchy little thing that grabs people's attention.

But I noticed you asked about two logos. We've only got one. Don't wanna confuse people.