What Was The Logos?

[Michael The Disciple]

Modern Oneness teachers by and large teach it was just Gods "thought" or a "plan" or spoken word. I would like to quote the Oneness teacher Jason Dulle as an introduction to this discussion.

According to Philippians 2:6, Jesus was in "the form of God" before the incarnation. "Who being in the form of God" is translated from hos en morphe theou huparchon. Huparchon, translated as "being" is from two Greek words, hupo, "under," and arche, "a beginning." It involves existence both before and after conditions mentioned in connection with it. In this case it is speaking of the preexistence of the "form of God." Morphe, referring to the preexistent "form" of God speaks of "that external form that represents what is intrinsic and essential. It indicates not merely what may be perceived by others, but what is objectively there."27 The emphasis is primarily upon the essence behind the form, but recognizes the visible form also.. Theou is in the genitive case, indicating possession. This form was God’s form. The word is also anarthrous, thus emphasizing God's person. In this context, then, Paul was pointing out that this existing visible form of God was His essential deity.

What exactly this form that God possessed was, we are not told. Nevertheless, it was existing in eternity probably until the incarnation, or possibly the ascension, at which time Jesus' body would have replaced the need for the visible form of God. From John we might gather that this form of God was the logos that was with God.

This form was at least visible to the heavenly host, for they presented themselves before God in some manner (I Kings 22:19; Job 1:6). Since God is omnipresent, there could not be any specific location at which to gather, unless, that is, God appeared in some type of visible, albeit spirit form. So the logos was the visible expression of God’s invisible essence. "The Word was not merely an impersonal thought existing in the mind of God but was, in reality, the Eternal Spirit Himself clothed upon by a visible and personal form..."28

God was always speaking His Word in the OT. It was through His Word that the worlds were created (Hebrews 11:3). Just as a man’s words, or his reason are not a separate person from him, the logos is not a separate person from the Father (theos). We can distinguish between God and His Word in that the Word was the thought of God, and had a visible form, but there is no Biblical evidence that the logos is a distinct person or personality in the Godhead.

I take it he believes the Logos was not limited to the explanations so common in todays Oneness teaching. Rather it either was or at least contained the concept that God had a visible form in the Tanakh.

To me this is a very important subject and the limiting of Logos to thought, plan, or spoken word hinders our understanding rather than helps. Note that Jason says we are not told exactly what this form was.

I want to try and demonstrate that scripture DOES tell us what the form was. First off John 1:1-2

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.

The word or Greek "Logos" was both with God and was God. I will show what in the Tanakh was both with God and was God. In doing so we can understand what John understood.

Jacob encountered something that both was "with God" and also "was God".

24: And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25: And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26: And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27: And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28: And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29: And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30: And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Gen. 32:24-30

Jacob had a life long relationship with this "man" he wrestled with and who changed his name to Jacob.

We see some clarifying of this man who Jacob believed was God in the book of Hosea.

2: The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
3: He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
4: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
5: Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. Hosea 12:2-4

The "man" Jacob wrestled here is called an angel. Angels are "messengers" in scripture. A messenger is WITH GOD. Yet this special messenger or angel is said to BE GOD.

The Logos was with God. But the Logos was God. Remember?

On his deathbed Jacob said this angel was his God.

15: And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

Very directly Jacob says his God was the angel who appeared to him through his life. As a messenger the Angel was with God. Yet Jacob says the Angel WAS HIS GOD.

The Logos was with God. The Logos was God. The Logos was the form of the omnipresent invisible God who filled the Universe. There was a form. The form was The Angel Of YHWH.

[Michael The Disciple]

The next important Biblical character to know this special messenger was Moses.

1: Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2: And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3: And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4: And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5: And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6: Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

When Moses looks into the bush he sees the angel of the Lord. Then it is God himself, YHWH who begins speaking to him. An angel is WITH GOD. Yet this angel WAS GOD. This is the same angel Jacob said was his God. He tells Moses "I am the God of thy fathers Abraham, Issac, and Jacob".

There is a doctrine among Oneness teachers of "theophanies". They teach that they were an appearance of God. Usually they mention the burning bush as one. Yet this is not true. The bush was not the theophany but the angel in the bush was himself YHWH.

The other one usually mentioned is the pillar of fire. Was it a theophany?

19: And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20: And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
21: And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22: And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
23: And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24: And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, Exodus 14:19-24

We see the real theophany or "appearance" of God was again the angel of YHWH. Though verse 19 says the angel was in the cloud verse 24 informs us that YHWH HIMSELF looked through the pillar of fire and of the cloud.

I say the only theophany in scripture was the angel of YHWH. It was with God. It also WAS GOD. It was the image of the invisible God.

Why did God need an image anyway?

27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 1 Kings 8:27

Whatever "spirit" is the substance of YHWH is more vast than all the Galaxies he created. How could anyone see that? Its impossible. Thats why scripture says "no one has seen God at any time". Thats why he needed an image. We might say a "messenger" for himself. True there were millions of angels but this particular one was fashioned from the omnipresent spirit of YHWH to be his image or form that he might come and go in his creation.

Before the beginning YHWH had no need of an image. There was no one else to see him! But in the beginning was the Logos. The visible image. This was with the omnipresent spirit. Yet it was a portion of that same spirit fashioned into am image or form of it.

I believe this is what John wrote about in his opening few verses. This is that form that God assumed to be WITH HIMSELF. I say this is the missing piece of todays Oneness teachers. It was taught this way by some of the outstanding Oneness teachers at the beginning of the movement back to this truth in the 20th century. It has been generally discarded for some reason over time.

For the life of me I dont know why. It is the very doctrine that explains to us what John meant when he said Logos was WITH GOD but also WAS GOD.

[pelathais]

Jason's a new guy here. Why don't you start by asking him about his favorite foods, of fishing spots?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Jason's a new guy here. Why don't you start by asking him about his favorite foods, of fishing spots?

Because Jason is a teacher. I assume that he ENJOYS discussions of the word of God. Plus who knows he may not be here long and what he wrote on the "form" of God is very important in bringing Oneness to a more fuller understanding.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The next important Biblical character to know this special messenger was Moses.
...
There is a doctrine among Oneness teachers of "theophanies". They teach that they were an appearance of God. Usually they mention the burning bush as one. Yet this is not true. The bush was not the theophany but the angel in the bush was himself YHWH.
...
God assumed to be WITH HIMSELF. I say this is the missing piece of todays Oneness teachers. It was taught this way by some of the outstanding Oneness teachers at the beginning of the movement back to this truth in the 20th century. It has been generally discarded for some reason over time.

For the life of me I dont know why. It is the very doctrine that explains to us what John meant when he said Logos was WITH GOD but also WAS GOD.

Moses saw God as the theophany or Angel of the Lord or the Word/Logos/Memra and he saw Him that way on a regular basis so it is said that he saw God's form and that he and God talked face to face.

[Sam]

As previously posted on Apostolic Friends Forum

God, some times called Elohim, but known to His covenant people by His name YHWH is an invisible spirit who fills all space and time. Reference Jeremiah 23:23 where He says He is a God who is not far off but near and fills heaven and earth. The CEV here has God saying, "I am everywhere, both near and far." Psalm 139:7-10 speaks of this also. We use the word "omnipresent" to say that God is everywhere and there is no place where God is not. Wisdom 1:7 says that "the Spirit of the Lord fills the whole earth." Since God is an invisible Spirit who is every where present at all times, nobody has seen Him in His Spirit being.

God has also existed in another form since some time before "the beginning" (whenever that was) see John 1:1-14 and 1 John 1:1-4. He has existed in a form or image spoken of as the Word, or the Logos, or the Memra, or the Angel of YHWH, or ha Kavod (the glory of the Messiah). This was God as He revealed Himself, God localized, God visible in some "form." In this way He could walk with Adam and Eve in the Garden as the "Voice of God." In this way He could appear to Abram on several occasions; and appear to and later wrestle with Jacob. Notice Genesis 28:10-16; and 32:24-32. Later in life, Jacob referred to God as Elohim and as the Angel/Messenger in Genesis 48:15-16. Centuries later the prophet Hosea speaks of Jacob's interaction with God and calls Him the Angel and also the Lord God of Hosts. This is the way He appeared to Moses in the burning bush in Exodus chapter 3 and later to the elders of Israel as recorded in Exodus 24:9-11. YHWH also appeared to Joshua as the Captain of the Lord's Host/Army in Joshua 5:13-15 and to the future parents of Samson in Judges 13:1-25. Later Isaiah saw Him in the Temple as recorded in Isaiah 6:1-13.

God was also active in and upon people in the Old Testament as the Spirit of the Lord or as the Holy Spirit.

Thus, we can see God in a three-fold manifestation in the Old Testament as Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. One God performing various roles. The word "person" as developed in early Christian theology meant the mask worn or the role played by an actor and therefore God was seen in the role of Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit. One God in three roles.

[Sam]

Maybe instead of "What Was The Logos?"
we should ask
"Who Was The Logos?"

To that question I would answer, "The Logos was and is Jesus."

[Praxeas]

I think "face to face" is a idomatic way of saying he spoke to God personally or he had a personal encounter. Further it denotes favor of God...I posted on that around here somewhere recently

[Praxeas]

Of "back part" the NET bible commentary says

61 tn The plural "my backs" is according to Gesenius an extension plural. The word denotes a locality in general, but that is composed of numerous parts (see GKC §124.b). Kaiser says that since God is a spirit, the meaning of this word could just as easily be rendered "after effects" of his presence (W. C. Kaiser, Jr, "Exodus," in EBC 484). As Driver says, though, while this may indicate just the "afterglow" which he leaves behind him, it was enough to suggest what the full brilliancy of his presence must be (see also Job_26:14; Driver, 363).

Moses asks to see God's Glory

the NET says
49 sn Moses now wants to see the glory of Yahweh, more than what he had already seen and experienced. He wanted to see God in all his majesty. The LXX chose to translate this without a word for "glory" or "honor"; instead they used the pronoun seautou, "yourself"--show me the real You. God tells him that he cannot see it fully, but in part. It will be enough for Moses to disclose to him the reality of the divine presence as well as God's moral nature. It would be impossible for Moses to comprehend all of the true nature of God, for there is a boundary between God and man. But God would let him see his goodness, the sum of his nature, pass by in a flash. B. Jacob says that the glory refers to God's majesty, might, and glory, as manifested in nature, in his providence, his laws, and his judgments. He adds that this glory should and would be made visible to man--that was its purpose in the world (p. 972).

God already met Moses "face to face"...and Moses "saw" God, there I think this was some sort of theophany or even a voice.

Of "face" the ISBE says
Often “my face,” “thy face” is mere oriental circumlocution for the personal pronoun “I,” “me,” “thou,” “thee.” “In thy face” means “in thy presence;” and is often so translated. A very large number of idiomatic Hebrew expressions have been introduced into our language through the medium of the Bible translation. We notice the most important of these phrases.

If God “hides his face” He withdraws His presence, His favor (Deu_32:20; Job_34:29; Psa_13:1; Psa_30:7; Psa_143:7; Isa_54:8; Jer_33:5; Eze_39:23, Eze_39:14; Mic_3:4). Such withdrawal of the presence of God is to be understood as a consequence of man's personal disobedience, not as a wrathful denial of God's favor (Isa_59:2). God is asked to “hide his face,” i.e. to disregard or overlook (Psa_51:9; compare Psa_10:11). This is also the idea of the prayer: “Cast me not away from thy presence” (literally, “face,” Psa_51:11), and of the promise: “The upright shall dwell in thy presence” (literally, “face,” Psa_140:13). If used of men, “to hide the face” expresses humility and reverence before an exalted presence (Exo_3:6; Isa_6:2); similarly Elijah “wrapped his face in his mantle” when God passed by (1Ki_19:13). The “covering of the face” is a sign of mourning (2Sa_19:4 = Eze_12:6, Eze_12:12); a “face covered with fatness” is synonymous with prosperity and arrogance (Job_15:27); to have one's face covered by another person is a sign of hopeless doom, as if one were already dead. This was done to Human, when judgment had been pronounced over him (Est_7:8)

[jasondulle]

Michael,

I am actually not entirely comfortable with my written statements regarding this. The "form" of God in Phil 2:6 is very difficult to deal with, and my conclusion is not one I would be willing to go to the chopping block for. Furthermore, those comments don't directly address my view of how we should interpret the logos of Jn 1 and 1 John 1, of which I am at least a little more comfortable with doing.

You are right in your assessment of my thoughts about the way John 1:1 is traditionally explained by Oneness teachers. I am not at all comfortable saying the logos is a plan in God's mind. Plans don't become incarnate. Plans are not conscious, and yet the logos who became incarnate is.

I think it's best to understand the logos as God's word. And what is God's word? It is His self-expression (just as I can distinguish my words from myself, my words are not a distinct person from me, but rather my self-expression). Jesus, the logos, is what God says to us in His own person. Jesus is not just speaking the message of God, but is the very message Himself. He is the self-communication of God. Consider Hebrews 1:1-2

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

It doesn't say He spoke to us through the Son, but by the Son. The Son is the message. He is the logos. Indeed, that's why the author of Hebrews goes on to say God created the world through the Son: because God created the worlds through His word, and the Son is the logos.