[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Aquila

CONTINUED...

But you’re definition is such that if anyone is honest, one cannot be pure and holy before God. I contend that human beings can be pure and holy before God. Not because they achieve some puritanical level of perfection…but because sin is properly defined to the point wherein it’s understood and boundaries aren’t crossed.

You've missed my point. My contention is that God calls us to holiness and purity, and then, through the power of the Holy Ghost, enables us to actually be holy and pure. Not by redefining what sin is so that our battle is easier to fight, but by freely giving us the victory over sin in our life.

I attended an ultra conservative church for many years. Our retention regarding our youth was abysmal. We lost nearly 87% or more of our youth after they graduated from the school we had. Most felt condemned, defeated, and unloved by God for merely being human. And so they gave in and decided if they can’t beat what they were taught was sin…they might as well give in and join up with the world. It’s truly a sad state of affairs.

You're right, this was unfortunate. To preach against sin without preaching that God freely gives us victory over it is to only preach half the message. It is because God loves us that he gives us power to be overcomers (1Jn 2:14). We no longer walk in condemnation when we live and walk in the Spirit (Ro 8:1).

Now, imagine a church which preaches true "holiness of the heart" to its adults AND its young people. Imagine that same church retaining its young people because they are truly dedicated to the Lord, and are up at the altar every Sunday. Not because something's continually wrong in their life, but because something is right. They desire to be filled to overflowing with the Spirit of the living God. They're on fire for him, and their youth group is thriving. Imagine that this church actually preaches against sin, but yet offers the hope of a loving God who forgives sin, and cleanses from all unrighteousness (1Jn 1:9). Hmmmm... what would that kind of church be like? Come to my church some Sunday and you'll see for yourself.

I remember talking to a boy who had some struggles in this area. His father caught him and berated him, calling him an “animal”, and even went as far as to tell his son it was a homosexual act because being a male, self gratification was male/male gratification. This kid was “horrified”. He began to drift badly. Condemnation caused him to give up. One day I asked if we could talk and asked him what was wrong. At first he resisted but eventually he broke. Sobbing about how much God hated him and how badly he’d failed he detailed what had happened. I stood there looking at a health young man who was spiritually shattered by spiritual abuse. I told him that I don’t think it was a homosexual act. He looked into my eyes in disbelief. He said, “You don’t?” I explained that I felt it was a normal phase of self discovery and it was a normal aspect of being a human being. I shared with him some things that Dr. James Dobson had written or said on the matter. This young man was so broken he actually asked, “So does that mean that God still loves me?” I said, “Yes, God still loves you more than you’ll ever know.” He explained how he had a fantasy about a woman in an add. I asked if he’d ever truly do anything. He said, “NO! That would be such a sin against God!” I said, “If you’d never do this outside of marriage…you’re not in sin. It’s just a fantasy. Understand it as such and don’t let this kind of thinking become something that leads you to desire to act on the interest.” This time he broke and wept because the weight of condemnation was finally lifted. I went to the altar with him that evening and he felt a mighty touch from a loving Heavenly Father. He soon began participating in youth functions again. He then joined the choir. Every now and then we’d talk. He said that for some reason when he was feeling lost his behavior seemed to have him in the grips. It was three or more times a day with feverish intensity. After lifting the condemnation and giving it to the Lord things calmed in his soul. Now it was less frequent and when it did happen, he was assured in a God who loved him and created him a healthy male. He later began attending Gateway Bible College. I lost track of him after I left that church. But I hope this illustrates what I’m talking about.

Without knowing more of the specifics, I can't comment on the specifics. Were you the boy's pastor? If so, did you sit down with the father of the boy before directly contradicting what the father had told his son? This is not to justify the father's behavior, which was incorrect. It would have been to gently correct the father's thinking and actions so that he could have gone back and repaired and restored that which had been damaged in the boy's spirit. That way, the father's authority and counsel could have been restored in the boy's mind, as well. Or at the least, the father AND the boy could have sat down for counseling together on this. And when I refer to something being damaged in the boy's spirit, I mean having been told that a particular action is sinful without being told that God loved him and wanted to grant him victory over this and to be restored to fellowship and communion with God.

And one more thing: please tell me you were at least a pastor of this church, rather than just one of the saints taking matters into your own hands. It's easy to justify the ends by the means.

I assure you, many are lying to you about their being “free”. I’ve seen it over and over and over. I’m an easy going person. People know that unless you’re a legalistic Pharisee, I don’t judge you. I’ve known people to put up a front because the standard expected of them is so high…but when talking to me they admit the truth. It’s disheartening how we teach people to be hypocrites.

While I’m inclined to believe that you have lived the victory you’ve talked about… I wouldn’t be surprised if you sent me a private message about those battles you’re fighting that no one knows. Like I said, I’ve seen it time and time again.

Your unstated premise here is that people who claim to walk in victory over sin are: a)- lying; and b)- hypocrites. This is troubling on so many levels. First, it does not reflect biblical truth. Scripture makes the assertion that believers can and should be pure, holy, and walk in victory over sin. You seem to be asserting this is not possible. Next, I question whether you, personally, have ever come into contact with the class of believers Scripture refers to above. Perhaps this is not your fault. Perhaps all you've ever been exposed to are believers who either lie (as you put it) about walking in victory, or have redefined what it means to walk in victory so as to circumvent ACTUALLY walking in victory.

We agree in pure Christian living…we just disagree as to where innocent fantasy begins and actual “sin” begins. In my mind, pure and holy Christian living is honest living. You are what you are. All the religiosity and desire to fulfill religious notions and standards are meaningless. You do well being REAL and falling before a loving Savior. You do well knowing that is truly “sin” and what is simply human. I know a pastor who taught that red pantyhose on a woman was a “sin”. Please… I have no time for that mess. Purity isn’t built on some legalistic or puritanical code as interpreted through legalistic eyes. Purity is being real. You’re outward religious self lining up with your hidden self. A man who is honest about his own condition (sinful or not) is far more righteous than the most righteous sounding Pharisee who beats the drum for a righteousness neither he or another other has truly achieved.

Couldn't agree with you more here. So let's not sugar coat it, white-wash it, or redefine what the Bible says is sin. Let's accept it, confess it, and then GET THE VICTORY OVER IT THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST!

I agree. We simply draw the line in different places. I used to be an ultra con who was so heavenly minded I was no earthly good. Religion looses sight of reality and the human condition. If you’ve ever studied cults and “mind control” techniques, you’ll know that the establishment of false “taboos” is one way to break the will. The “true believer” will strive to master victory over the taboos…but unbeknownst to them, the victory is short lived and intended to keep them on the hamster’s wheel. Constantly striving and never arriving. It keeps people under control. Some of what we think are “sins” or “sinful” in Pentecost truly aren’t. Some things are just a matter of living as a human being on planet earth.

Hmmm...well, my church and I certainly aren't considered to be "ultra con" by any sense of the word. We are, however, on a quest to draw closer to God and away from the world, it's standards and values. We are about "coming out from among them and be ye separate, says the Lord". We are about being in the world but not of the world. We are, most of all, about focusing on our Savior and what is the desire of his heart, rather than focusing on what is the desire of our heart. His desire should be our desire. We serve a holy God who commands his people, his body, his bride to be holy. That's what we're all about. He's preparing a bride who is without spot, wrinkle or blemish. But this cannot take place unless we yield to his leading and let him do his stuff. Thank God we are!