Quote:
Originally Posted by tbpew
I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.
In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.
If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).
Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.
They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.
We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.
Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.
Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.
Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.
Who is your master?
Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?
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I think this is VERY WRONG! Pastors most certrianly ARE responsible for those under them and it is the people under them that are responsible for submitting to their authority!
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Show me in the word of God exactly WHERE it says that because God said to "obey those that hath the rule over you", that they are somehow "masters" of a person. Or that they somehow "own" them. It DOES say that they must give an account...so that speakes volumes! It is not "ownership"....but ACCOUNTABILITY that they are responsible for!
I submit that it is not about being a slave or master, but a servant of Christ who submits to the authority of the person (or persons) over them and those in charge such as a pastor and leadership are responsible for the people or flock under their authority. Also, it is the pastors responsibility to make sure that those under their authority are ready for heaven.
We currently have an evanglist at our church. He told our church the other night, however,that there is a pastor at a church he bases himself out of...that if that pastor were to call him and say he needed him....he respects him so much that he would drop the revival he is in and go to him! And this is an evangilist talking!
It seems that a lot of statements made here, are from people who somehow want to find a way to do things differently because they believe that the current way of doing things is wrong. Even though a lot of what is being said about faithfulness, is what God's word backs up.
If you really want to find a way to do things your own way....why would you want to belong to any form of christianityat all? After all, the bible says we are servants to someone...either the Devil or Christ...
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
How then can you say you are wanting to serve God, if you cannot even submit to an authority figure or even stay rooted and grounded in one church if you are a saint and not in the five fold ministry? I am sorry, but I see a lot of people making excuses for what they believe, but to me they have not given credible evidence as to WHY they should not be grounded in one church if they are a saint. But the word of God DOES give reason's why you should be accountable to one pastor.
And as far as "not being a plant" well the word of God says....
Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Now how exactly are you going to bring forth fruit in due season, if you are CONSTANTLY being uprooted? Sorry, but to me this is very basic. If you constantly uproot a tree or plant....it can never find the roots it needs to grow. Thus, it can never bear the fruit it is supposed to in it's due season.
Again it all goes back to being grounded and having some kind of root system that you can draw strength from in times that you need strength. This is what a body of believers provides. It would take an incredibly strong christian to just go it alone and jump from church to church, being accountable to no one but God and never having any roots.
Show me a kid who goes from school to school constantly and I will show you a kid who really has no grasp on the subjects he is currently studying and probably one that has no accountability to any one teacher.
So it could mean in some cases, he can become a troublemaker....because if he get's into trouble at one school, hey,he is not going to be there long so who cares? He just goes to another school where he can repeat the process over and over. This is also sometimes the attitude of a lot of saints that just go from church to church....they have no real accountability...so it does not matter if what they do or say hurts the church they go to. They can just go somewhere else, but somebody has to pick up the pieces of the mess they leave behind.
There is more to being accountable to a body of believers than just "falling in line" or "being a slave" , you also develop relationships with that body and if you have the RIGHT relationship.....you don't WANT to go anyplace else! It all goes back to your perception....do you view yourself a "slave" because you have a pastor and those you are accountable to? If you do, then you have the wrong perception....or are in a very abusive church situation that you need to get out of anyway.
But if you have the right relationship, you want to see your church grow and the peoiple you have formed relationships with, healthy !