[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You occasionally ("MANY times"?) refer to the Sabbath as ritual, and have expressed the idea that as Christians we have moved beyond ritual. Thus, my statement, showing that the line of reasoning that goes "Sabbath keeping is ritual, but we're above all that" is erroneous and result in conclusions only the most hardcore antinomian pietists would accept. Thus, not only is that line of reasoning about ritual false, it also reduces to an absurdity. "That which proves too much, proves nothing."

You have not proved it’s not ritualistic. Again, as any one can plainly see, because God rested the seventh day and commanded man, ONLY UNDER LAW to res the seventh day of each following week (seeing as NO ONE KEPT SBBATH BEFORE MOSES BUT GOD), it’s a ritual or maybe ceremony is a better word. A memorial . Why not rest the 3r5d day of the week instead? Can’t do that, because the ritualistic elemen t says it must be the day God rested.

This has nothing to do with the ridiculous claim of antinomianism. It has everything to do with being able to distinguish what is ritual and what is not.

Like what, exactly?

Like a memorialized ritual of repeating something God did or didn’t do.

The weekly Sabbath is mentioned two times in chapter 4: in verses 4 and 10; possibly a third time depending on how one views verse 9. The weekly Sabbath is NOT the subject of chapter 4. The "rest" spoken of as the subject of the chapter, in verses 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 11 are NOT about the weekly seventh day Sabbath rest, but about a rest that God has which is available to God's people. (Verse 10 contains an allusion to both types of rest, and again verse 9 is disputable as to which rest is in view, depending on one's understanding of the verse as previously mentioned.)

Verse 9 is not disputable. It clearly is speaking beyond a Sabbath day, seeing as David distinctly said, as per Paul’s explanation, that long after sabbath day and long after entrance into Canaan occurred, there was a day people never rested in yet.

Anyway, I am glad you finally clarified your view on the rest of the overall point of Hebrews 4 not being Sabbath day.

There is a rest God has, which He makes available to His people. Israel under Joshua did not enter that rest.

Israel under Joshua DID enter the rest of Canaan. Israel also DID keep seventh day rest. But Hebrews 4 is saying long after those two forms of rest were kept there was still a form of rest no one kept yet. THAT is the rest available to us ONLY IN the new covenant.

They did keep the weekly Sabbath, however. So we know the rest which is the subject of the chapter isn't THAT (weekly Sabbath) rest, but something else. They couldn't enter it because of the hardness of their unbelieving hearts.

Agreed, but to be more correct, the younger generation did enter it, when their elders did not.

Paul references Psalm 95 repeatedly in this connection, and shows there was and still is a rest for the people of God. And, important to note, this is NOT the weekly Sabbath rest.

Amen. Again, thanks for clarifying that.

Paul brings in the weekly Sabbath in verse 4 to prove a point he made in verse 3, that there is a rest for the people of God, entered into by those who believe, that God in the Psalm said the unbelieving (like those in the wilderness) will not and cannot enter into that rest. ALTHOUGH GOD'S WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, as the Scripture says "And God rested from all His works." Paul is pointing out the Divine rest he is talking about is NOT the weekly Sabbath rest, it is something none of unbelieving Israel was able to enter into, it IS something the believers enter into.

I think you veer offtrack here. Paul referred to the seventh day Sabbath when he said God rested the seventh day, which is where the fourth commandment comes from. Paul is actually saying that the entrance into Canaan somehow melds together with the thought of Sabbath day rest, because the Sabbath day rest originated from God’s rest in Genesis shows a completion of a work. The same can be said for entrance into Canaan. There were cities they did not have to build, etc., but merely enter into them and enjoy the. Rest. All of that is combined to give us a better glimpse of what he means by the rest into which we must enter in the new covenant. Christ’s rest from HIS new creation.

Paul is NOT teaching "the weekly Sabbath is a type and shadow of the believer's rest in God by faith."

He is by implication. If Sabbath day is nto the overall rest God is getting at in Hebrews 4, but it is referred to by indicating God finished his work and rested the seventh day, then he is using the background thought of sabbath day as a shadow, because as God rested from that work and completed his work, there is a work that’s been completed that we must enter into. It makes no sense to consider the sabbath apart from that when Paul spoke of God resting after his work was completed.

Rather, he is pointing out the believer's rest in God by faith is NOT the weekly Sabbath rest, that the weekly Sabbath rest is NOT the only "rest" God desires His people to enter into. It is, in fact, "another day", specifically "TODAY, if you will hear His voice, and not harden your heart."

Amen. I agree there.

Verse 10 points out that when a man enters his rest, he ceases from his labours, like God ceased from the works of Creation on the seventh day. The point is that those who believe cease from their labours, that is, their works, when they enter into Covenant with God by faith in Christ. They cease from dead works (sin, transgressing God's commandments), they cease from trying to be justified (declared righteous) by the works of the law (the old covenant with its various sacrifices for sin, which cannot truly purify the heart).

But one must realize the works of law were instituted to make one rigjteous by kee[ping them, as Paul noted in Gal 3 when he quoted that purpose in Lev 18:5.

[quote]Paul is not in any way saying those who become believers cease to obey the commandments of God, nor is he saying the weekly Sabbath is a dispensible shadow of the believer's rest in Christ.{/quote I never said he told us to abrogate the commandments, but his reference to God resting is implying there is a shadow in Sabbath keeping, however, Col 2 plainly stated Sabbath is a shadow.

What is the rest? What is Paul's entire point? It is summarized in verses 13-16, especially verse 16 which is a summation of the whole argument: we are to come to the mercy seat (throne of grace) and find mercy and help by virtue of our high priest Jesus Christ, rather than the Levitical system of sin offerings and Aaronic priests which Israel of old had, but which did not enable them to enter in to the Divine rest.

I agree there.

Errors being repeated require repeated corrections. It is interesting that in all this discussion, where Paul is supposedly teaching what YOU teach, he never actually says what you say, nor concludes what you conclude. He never says "the seventh day Sabbath is a shadow of our rest in God, it is a shadow of Jesus, it is a shadow of His physical body, it is a shadow of the church" (which, exactly, is it, anyway?). He never bothers to take this most splendid and opportune time to simply say "Therefore stop resting on the seventh day of the week." Funny, that.

You are NOT correcting ANYTHING when you do not take what I said and detailing show how my points of logic do not follow through, but instead just repeat something by argument does not even refute. He does indeed say what I say in stating Col 2’s words of Sabbaths being a shadow. JESUS IS OUR REST. It is not a shadow of his physical body. By using the body to speak of the shadow, he is saying that the Sabbath day and the other drinks and new moons, etc. are the shadows. Are they physical shadows from his physical body like dark spots on the wall in the shape of his body? You have to say so if you claim the body is the physical body of Jesus. He is speaking allegorically. The body of Christ IS CHRIST. His purpose and person and everything about Him including a myriad of things that only all the shadows surveyed together could come closest to without actually giving us Him. The shadows of him vary from one perspective of his purpose shown in the Sabbath day, to a totally different aspect referring to something like his sacrifice. Of course not. They’re days of rest and other days of memorials and ritualistic . The body is used as an allegory as the thought of a shadow is used, in the sense that bodies cast shadows. And as much as the Sabbath was not a literal shadow on the wall behind Christ’s body that cast the shadow due to a bright light on the other side of his body, reference to his body is an allegory as well. HE is the BODY. Not his physical body HIS REST provided by finishing creation and then sitting at the right hand throne is what the BODY represents in this illustration. Just as a shadow on the wall cast from the light on the other side of a body is a vague glimpse of the characteristics of the body, the Sabbath is a vague glimpse of the quality of the rest Christ provides. Sabbath day is like a shadow compared to the fulfillment of the greater Sabbath which is compared by contrast to the shadow by the physical body of Jesus. I’d sooner see the physical body of Jesus than I would his shadow on the wall as much as I would sooner have the rest He provided after new creation was worked then the 24 hour day period of Sabbath day that God rested after first creation.