[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I think you may have missed this Jason. Isnt this huge? IN THE BIBLE in the New Testament there are zero snapshots of anyone who received the Holy Ghost and then did something first besides speaking in tongues.

If there were do you think there would be such a thing as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement? Of course not it would easily be refuted!

So we can go to the historical narrative in Acts and make a very strong case for our doctrine while all of Christendom cannot present such a case that shows someone was filled with the Spirit......and something ELSE occured.

Mike, I think you missed my reply, it was a few posts before this.

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

21 epistles. Tongues only appears in 1. And it certainly doesn't seem like Paul believed that every Christian would speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30 NLT
Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church: first are apostles, second are prophets, third are teachers, then those who do miracles, those who have the gift of healing, those who can help others, those who have the gift of leadership, those who speak in unknown languages. Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not!

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 NLT
Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives--especially the ability to prophesy. For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.

Mike the point of these scriptures is that they strongly indicate that what you are asserting was the common universal initiative experience (speaking in tongues) was not at all common and universal according to the apostle Paul.

You say that all speak in tongues. Paul plainly says they don't. To me that alone ends the argument and my position is established while the initial evidence doctrine is successfully refuted. (That said, I'll continue the dialogue anyhow).

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I think you may have missed this Jason. Isnt this huge? IN THE BIBLE in the New Testament there are zero snapshots of anyone who received the Holy Ghost and then did something first besides speaking in tongues.

If there were do you think there would be such a thing as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement? Of course not it would easily be refuted!

Yes, most certainly there would be a such thing as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. It nearly happened in the first century. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians chiding them about division in the church and we get an early precursor of denominations (I'm of Paul, I'm of Apollos, I'm of Cephas....I'm of Luther, I'm of Wesley, I'm of Calvin, etc). But it certainly isn't far fetched to think that these believers who spoke in tongues seemed to think they were more spiritual than those who did not, they were the spiritual elistists, thinking the gift God gave them made them something special. So in answer to your question, a resounding YES, I can absolutely see there being such a thing as the pentecostal/charismatic movement, outside of apostolic orthodoxy.

It is also interesting that the teachings and rebukes of Paul in 1 Corinthians 12,13, and 14 could just as easily be an original message to any UPC Camp meeting or General conference and be just as fitting as when he wrote them to the Corinthians-the pentecostal movement is essentially the same ERROR the Corinthian church had. They need to realize that not all speak in tongues, that each member has a different gift, that love trumps all gifts, and even amongst the gifts prophecy is far superior to tongues. That if tongues are spoken in the assembly it should be no more than two or three in term, and there must be an (another, not their self) interpreter. If you all speak in tongues at the same time won't visitors think you're crazy (uh, yes--that's been proven), and that all things should be done decently and in order. The Pentecostal/charismatic movement pretty much poo-poos all those teachings just as the Corinthians did (hopefully they corrected these practices after Paul wrote to them). Nevertheless, like I said, it is the same ERROR and takes on the same characteristics.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So we can go to the historical narrative in Acts and make a very strong case for our doctrine while all of Christendom cannot present such a case that shows someone was filled with the Spirit......and something ELSE occured.

I think the word "strong" here is subjective. I can follow the argument from Acts. I think it is reasonable and makes sense if you only focus on select passages. I can see why someone would believe it.

But when the whole of scripture is taken into account (and I would argue even the whole of the book of Acts if we went chapter by chapter and compared every message the apostles preached with all the responses Luke records, where 18 of 21 conversion accounts do not mention tongues or even imply tongues) that the argument isn't as "strong" as it first appears. And weakens as one tries to harmonize it with the gospels and with the epistles.