Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
I was once blind like Timmy is now, but the Lord in his mercy opened my eyes to the truth.
Timmy at one time did see, but the Lord for his own reasons has closed Tim's eyes to the truth.
For God (Yes this comes from God himself) gave Tim a strong delusion, that he might believe a lie.
The delusion is so strong that no one can ever dissuade Tim that it is real, only Tim can do that by repenting of his sins and asking God for forgiveness, the ball is really in Tim's court.
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Ah, now you're talking, Flamingoword. As long as either side keeps talking in abstract terms, then atheists (or agnostics) can prove little except to show the process and effects of faith and compare it with the process and effects of reason. And that's probably too general and abstract also, and not interesting to a typical believer. But once you actually make a
specific claim about the
nature of your god, or (even better) what your god insists that you believe, then at that point we have something substantive to analyze. Let's review your scenario above, because it is probably fairly orthodox christian belief, and I often pondered the same issue when I was a believer, and often "got help" to better understand the (fundamentalist, if not also apostolic) christian position about this from my teachers and pastors. (Not reflected below, of course.)
Your beginning premise:
<<The Lord has closed Tim's eyes to the truth.>>
Of course, the christian god's power is so powerful that the nature and ability of the god is labeled "omnipotent". So, it's obvious that if the god closes someone's eyes, ("sends a delusion") then there is no other power in existence that can undo the job that your god performed. When God sends a delusion, that person should be fixed for sure, right? What possible motivation can there be for such an unbeliever to even possibly WANT to see your "truth" and ever, ever want to repent? Such a deluded person is under the effect of an OMNIPOTENT level of delusion and therefore cannot see otherwise. Or does all that expire at midnight? If so, that's not a very "strong delusion" at all!
<<The delusion is so strong that no one can ever dissuade Tim that it is real>>
That part could make sense until you add the other contradiction.
<<only Tim can do that by repenting, the ball is in his court.>>
Ah, so Timmy's original doubt plus the strong delusion your god sends still isn't quite absolutely strong enough, so that he can still repent just like that? (bang! smacks tennis ball.) According to Paul, only god "leads" a sinner to true repentance (the kind that "need not to be repented of...") What an inefficient, crossed-up use of power and effort, considering Tim was already plenty lost. What makes the god revoke the delusion? Rather, a good god could just wait until Poor Timmy comes to his senses without making things impossibly harder due to the god using his superpowers against Timmy's mind. If Timmy does have something like "free will," then hasn't the strong delusion effectively dominated it, or have you just invented new brand of "strong delusion," suitable just for such an invented situation?
Rather, the better explanation is that Yahweh god is yet another god patterned after human characteristics (anthropomorphism) and in this case the pattern is the kind of tyrant that ancient desert dwelling societies respected and obeyed-- strong, capricious, mischievous, and tricky! Or even better, the god itself is doing just fine, thank-you, but the invented theology to explain this god is patterned after another kind of human--the type who gets confused when driving anywhere more than three blocks. Like Mr. Magoo.
Actually, I do
hope (just hope, not believe) there is a god after all. But pretty sure (if there is) it won't be the supposed god you say is so great. It's a bigger delusion (than Timmy's!) to really think the god who needs to "send delusions" to children is somehow consistent with being all-Loving, all-Knowing, all powerful.
