I think a strong argument can be made that
Acts 8 is not the normative experience for all believers for all time. It seems to be the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Samaritans just as it was poured out on the Jews in
Acts 2, and the Gentiles in
Acts 10. I asked you for scripture, and you went to the de facto oneness Pentecostal passage. Is it possible, just possible, that perhaps the way that oneness Pentecostals have interpreted the meaning of that scripture is wrong. I think we'd both agree that scripture does not contradict scripture, but rather interprets and compliments other scripture. The idea that someone is NOT saved at belief seems contradictory to these scriptures, just to name a few:
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 1:15 (KJV)
16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16(KJV)
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts,
lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12 (KJV)
12 But as
many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (KJV)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that
ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 (KJV)
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for
if ye believe not that I am he,
ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV)
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
John 9:35-38 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that
ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and
that believing ye might have life through his name.John 20:31 (KJV)
15 That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:15-18 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name
whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
36 He that
believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and
he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:35 (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that
every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 (KJV)
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And
whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26 (KJV)
46 I am come a light into the world,
that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46 (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:12 (KJV)
19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:19 (KJV)
7 I say unto you, that likewise
joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:7 (KJV) Why should the angels rejoice if the repentant sinner is still heading to hell?
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:7,11 (KJV)
31 And they said,
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:31 (KJV)
The point of all of these scriptures is not "I'm right and you're wrong" because I do not think that simply posting scripture alone proves an argument. But my point in posting this scripture is that there are probably 200 more NT scriptures which emphasize faith or belief and equate that with salvation. There are ZERO scriptures that teach that tongues are necessary for salvation, that is a fact. You can make a case for salvation at baptism from
Acts 22:16,
Acts 2:38,
Mark 16:!6, and
1 Peter 3:21, but in order to arrive at that conclusion (that baptism is the point of salvation) one has to do hermeneutical gymnastics to reconcile justification by faith with such a belief. Especially those OP's who teach that baptism is the equivalent of circumcision for the believer (as in
Colossians 2:11), for
Romans 4:10 makes it quite plain Abraham was justified while he was in uncircumcision--so if we want to follow the type, we would have to say Abraham was saved prior to baptism. I think that the doctrine of justification makes it plan that God justifies the sinner based on their faith in Christ, not works, not even religious obedience. However, taking the whole of scripture, it is within reason to say that the quality of faith which saves, the faith of Abraham, is an obedient faith. Abraham was saved by faith, and because he had genuine faith, when God told him to be circumcised, he obeyed. When God challenged him to offer Isaac, he obeyed. Those were results of his saving faith, not the reason he was saved. Same thing with believers-if someone truly believes unto salvation, if they are justified by faith, they will desire to be obedient to Christ, which of course includes submitting to baptism.
As I've pointed out before,
Acts 2:38 carries only 2 commands (not 3) 1)Repent 2)be baptized. That's all a sinner who believes can do. Beyond that they are dependent on God to keep His promise of filling them with His Spirit/regenerating them. Also, there is no mention of the 3,000 in
Acts 2 speaking in tongues, nor the 5,000 in
Acts 4. In fact of 21 conversions in Acts only 3 include tongues.
I just don't think there is good consistent scriptural evidence to support the initial evidence doctrine. Tongues isn't even mentioned in the epistles, except
1 Corinthians 12 & 14, and mostly that is in an unfavorable sense, in fact prophecy is said to be the greater gift, and love the greatest gift and supreme evidence of Christianity.
The book of 1 John gives several tests so that we can know if we are in the faith, these are social, theological, and moral tests. None of which include tongues.
We are further told that the fruit we are to bear is the fruit of the Spirit (
Galatians 5:22-23) and that all men will know we are His disciples by our love for one another, and our keeping of His commandments.
Again, there is absolutely NO SCRIPTURE that explicitly says someone must speak in tongues to be saved. There is scant implication of that in
Acts 2,8, 10 and 19 but considering those verses in context and with the whole of scripture, it seems to be a tough sell IMO.