Leadership in the home and church
 

I have been doing a study on where we get the leadership that is presently in the church. Going back to OT I cannot find the type of leadership. From what I can find, the leadership was in the home, that the teaching came from the training up of a child from day one till adulthood. Or until he/she started a family of their own.

I cannot find anywhere that God handed down leadership authority over the people of spiritual or cival nature to the priesthood.

Where do we get this from? I know what history tells us, any time man is given laws man tries to rethink them. Take our own constitution for example from a basic understandable letter of intent man has over the years added to our constitution to the point it no longer resembles what our for fathers penned.

In doing so we have lost more and more of our freedoms, and gotten more under dictatorship in our country. I could bring out more parallels but the fact is why have we allowed mans philosophy's to come into the church, the body of Christ, The Kingdom of God. All this does is to stop the natural move of God in his body.

So tell me where in the OT, does God give the commandment that the priesthood, or even the prophet has spiritual or cival control over the people?

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

Do you JUST want examples from the OT (Levitical and Aaronic Priesthood, Prophets, Elders, etc.) and the functions of the offices of those chosen to work in the tabernacle or from the NT as well (Bishops, Deacons, Pastors. Prophets, Elders, etc.)?

I will try to give some scriptural insight, but I am having difficulty in understanding your question, probably because of the "spiritual and civil control" part. Maybe it's just word usage but I'm getting stuck there.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

OT first, as NT would be based on OT examples. Levitical, Aaronic Priesthood, Prophets, Judges, etc. As for the spiritual and civil control, just that did they have any civil control, or even spiritual control over the individual, or family as to the setting of any control over the family or did the family do all the teaching to thier own.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

First off, good question, bro. I haven't studied this in-depth before and your question will probably start me on a new study topic, and for that I thank you. Iron sharpeneth iron. These are just a few passages that go toward answering your question but they are definitely not the ONLY passages that do nor are they ENTIRE answer to the question. More of a foundational beginning, so to speak.

Scriptural Basis for Leadership

Exodus 18:13-27 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, "What is this thing that thou doest to the people? Why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?"

And Moses said unto his father in law, "Because the people come unto me to enquire of God: When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws."

And Moses' father in law said unto him, "The thing that thou doest is not good. Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee. If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace."

So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said. And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves. And Moses let his father in law depart; and he went his way into his own land.

Example of Pastoral Authority (given to Moses)

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Example of Pastoral Authority

Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Commandment for Aaronic Priesthood to Teach the People

Leviticus 10:8-11 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

The entire Prophetic collection of books in the Bible could be quoted here as well. The LORD uses prophets specifically to encourage, admonish, convict of sin, lead to repentance, teach, correct, etc. the people of Israel. I hope these help.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

Thanks

The question would be when were they to teach these things to the people? God commanded the Isrealite to come to one place only a few times a year. To worship (feast days) The rest of the time it seems that the family head was the teacher of Gods word.

Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Moses handed down the law to all the children of Isreal at Mt Sinai unless I am mistaken the statuetes and law are not mentioned again except at times of apostisy. And even then not always.

Most of the time, God brings down a neighboring nation to suppress them till they turn back to him and begin to call on his help, and God raises a judge, or prophet to lead them back to him. That judge them became a mediator in civil matters it seems. I don't find examples of them having church so to speak.

We must rely on examples of history just as much as what we read into scripture to understand the mind of God. How did they have pastors in bible days? Where did they go to church, (if in fact they did) How did the prophets and preist teach the statutes of the law and when.

Based on the answers to these quetions where do we get the dictator, pastoral rule we presently have in many churches today?

And Yes I said dictatorship, because that is what it is when one man stands up and translates the bible to a group of people requireing them to follow said organizations laws and not seek them out for themselves. The only differance is that the people in churches have the free will to leave. But then not they don't because they fear for thier soul salvation. It takes a strong person to break from the clutches of these. Many never will so strong is the hold and fear of loosing eternal life and family and friends and being shuned.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

I'm guessing that you've been hurt before by organizational politics and more specifically, a pastor/member of leadership. If so, I'm sorry you went through that and pray that the LORD will help you to receive healing and deliverance from the experience.

Biblically, we should assemble ourselves together frequently in "Corporate", or church-body, worship. Once the veil was rent in the temple, all were given access to Him as much as we want to seek Him. I agree with the family being the primary place for Christian learning to take place. If the only time we enter into the presence of God is during church services, I believe we are taking for granted the sacrifice that He made for us and as parents are missing a God-given blessing of raising our children in the ways of the LORD.

However, it is helpful to have a pastor who truly seeks and spends time with Jesus in order to help us to be accountable. I believe that everyone, including pastors and bishops, should have a "seasoned" man or woman of God whom they can trust and allow them to make sure they are where they need to be, in terms of attitude, behavior, conduct, study, prayer life, etc. I am truly thankful for the men that the LORD has put in my life who are wise that will help to keep me on the right track. Iron sharpeneth iron, deep calleth unto deep, and righteousness is revealed from faith to faith, right?

Here are some NT scriptures that indicate more assembling together than what was asked in the OT.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Again, I hope this helps.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

Wow why is it that everyone thinks I have been hurt before "by organizational politics and more specifically, a pastor/member of leadership"?
I have been in what most concider the ministry since my early twenties. Pastored, assitant pastored, Church school principle, started a Home missions work, intrim pastor, Youth pastor, youth camp counseler, Sunday school teacher, Bus ministry, worship leader and finaly assosiate minister. All before I left UPCI, these questions are not before I left UPCI but after I left, from study that some things are not what they seem at first glance. Too many of the doctrines of Christianity today are based on mans traditions and not sound study of the word of God. And that is not just my personal opinion.

I agree even God commanded the Israelites to come together several times a year, ie the feast days. They were to come to a centeral place chosen by God for these times. In time Jerusalem becoming the holy city for these times. And as parents we are not just missing a God given blessing, we are disobeying a direct command of God if we don't teach our children the things of God.

This is where we separate ideas, it is helpful to have others who truly seek and spend time with God and the word. As we are all to seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are exhorted to assemble together for several reasons, the gifts of the spirit cannot work unless two or three are assembled together to exhort, edify and comfort, we need to share with one another those things that God has shown us in his word, as to keep ouselves from false doctrine, Yes iron sharpens iron.


So now that we have established that maybe you can answer the questions ask in the previous post.
How did they have pastors in bible days? Where did they go to church, (if in fact they did) How did the prophets and priest teach the statutes of the law and when?

Funny thing only one time does scripture use the word pastor in NT yet pastor has become the primary minister in the church today. Also Pastor is interchangable with shepherd and even the best pastor I have been privaliged to know and assosiate with does not completely aline with what a true shepherd is and does.

A good book on this is "Your Pastor Your Shepherd" by James Lee Beall

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

I asked about the "wounded" part because you seemed pretty bitter when describing leadership in the church today. Unhealed emotional wounds tend to lead to bitterness, guilt, shame, etc. I apologize that I was wrong.

And we do agree more than not on the people who help keep us spiritual accountable. I am thankful that I have a Pastor and Bishop who keep me accountable but I am also thankful that I have other friends in the LORD who study, pray, and seek His face. It's not the title that empowers someone to be a guide, it's the Spirit and anointing that is in them. I think I put the emphasis more on Pastors because that's what the topic is about and where my focus was. Sorry about that, as well.

I'm going to church soon, but I will re-look at and try to answer your last post again in a little while.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

I will try to answer all your questions as I can. Here is the first one from your previous post.

The question would be when were they to teach these things to the people?

To my understanding, they were to teach them as often as possible. There are numerous scriptures from Genesis through Ezra that give instructions to various types of leaders to teach God's people. During the time that the tabernacle was still being used as "the church" and it was a "type and shadow" of Christ, the people went once per year with a sacrifice or offering, but they consistently lived their entire life around it. There were 3 tribes that faced it from the North, 3 that faced it from the West, 3 that faced it from the East, and 3 that faced it from the South. If we were to look at the tabernacle as it was constructed from an aerial view, we would see all members of all tribes facing it.

The LORD wanted them to see the tabernacle when they woke up, before they went to bed, when they were going about their daily business, and wanted them to literally make it the center of their lives. Their entire culture and society was based on God's law. If anything, the way that we have church now pales in comparison to the way the LORD wants us to. They simply had a type and shadow of Christ, we have His Spirit! (1 Corinthians 6:19, Ephesians 2:21). They lived their lives around the tabernacle without Christ in them, the hope of Glory. We have His Spirit and only "go to church" a few days a week, when the Bible instructs us to pray without ceasing and asks all men to pray everywhere, lifting Holy hands.

Re: Leadership in the home and church
 

I think my previous post went toward the "when and how" they taught question you asked before. I will wait for you to reply before I go on anymore with it.

For this question, , if you are talking about the OT, which I believe you are, the specific word Pastor(s) only appears in the book of Jeremiah (2:8, 3:15, 10:21, 12:10, 22:22, 23:1-2). Most of the verses in that book that speak of Pastors speaks of the LORD's anger due to them not doing what they were supposed to do by not "feeding" the people and leading the to understanding and knowledge of God's word.

The literal meaning of the OT word (rawaw) is the same as the NT word for pastor which is defined as a "one who tends the flock". According to the passages in Jeremiah, pastors are to seek the LORD, refrain from wickedness, and help the people come to knowledge and understanding. I am assuming that the LORD refers to those in positions of leadership as shepherds, even if He calls them specifically by other titles. I could be wrong here as I don't know any specific Biblical references but am going off of assumption.

The importance of pastors, though, shouldn't be minimized. In Jeremiah 3:15-16, the LORD says, "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. (16) And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more."

For the LORD to replace the Ark of the Covenant with a man according to the heart of the LORD is a very precious thing. Unfortionately, pastors today, as they have done throughout history, sometimes pervert the gift that the LORD gives them and misleads the entire flock. There are surely times also where men are anointed as pastors by men and not God.