Is God good?
 

I know. Silly question.

But seriously. If you believe the Bible is true, then there are many scriptures, most but not all in the OT, that require contortions (IMO) to avoid concluding that God is evil. A principle of Biblical interpretation that's commonly used is to approach the Bible without preconceived ideas (with the possible exception that the Bible is true -- any contradictions or errors you think you find cannot really be contradictions or errors), to determine what the Bible is really saying (exegesis), and not to prove what we already believe (eisegesis). So set aside the idea that God is good, for a moment. He certainly may be good, but let's use the Bible to discover whether He is good or not, shall we?

Yes, there are scriptures that explicitly state that God is good. No quarrel, there. But if there are scriptures that indicate the opposite, how do we resolve this apparent contradiction? I don't know of any scriptures that explicity state that God is evil. But what if we find God performing evil actions? What are we to do with them?

Here's one example. The plagues. Look at Exodus. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not let God's people leave. That's what it says. It doesn't say, as some contend, that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. Some of the plagues say he did, but the first one and several others say it was God's doing.

That's just one problem with the story. Another one is God's reasons for the hardening and for the plaguing: it was to show that He was God, and that He was powerful. Any mention of the Egyptian people deserving what they got is not to be found (except possibly the slave overseers). In fact, "the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required." Even Moses was well regarded in Egypt, among the people as well as the government officials. Even if one accepts that Pharaoh and the overseers were bad guys, deserving punishment, why punish the people?

So we have 10 plagues. The grand finale being the killing of many thousands, perhaps millions of children. "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

So, the Bible shows us that God is a mass killer. And the motive was to prove that He was powerful. To show off. And to show the Egyptians that He was the Lord. Does that end justify the means? Was there no better way to show them He was God? Could He not have softened Pharaoh's heart, rather than harden it?

With respect, your last paragraph reveals a lack of understanding in the Soverienty of God.
God is holy. And He desires that His people be holy. Before Jesus came to redeem men from sin...God destroyed the sinner along with the sin. This is in keeping with the fact that, through Adam's sin, death entered into the world. God eradicated sin by eradicating the sinner. Until a better way was provided, this was the way for sin to be eradicated.

But, with the Death of Jesus, God provided the means for our escape from sin. Jesus became sin for us. Our sins were nailed to the tree and Jesus died to redeem us from sin. He died so we wouldn't have to.

No, God could not "soften Pharoahs heart". God gave us our free will when we were created. To "force" something on Pharoah would have taken a way his freewill, which was God's gift to us. God didn't slay the wicked to "show them he was God". He did it to eradicate sin.

You want to examine if God is good by his actions. You equate God's judgements on sin as being evil. What do you think it means when the Bible says God 'hardened' someone's heart? I don't believe for a second that God arbitrarily hardens some hearts and not others for He is no respecter of person and He is just. Therefore if God hardens a heart He has reason because of His foreknowledge. Here are some examples of why God hardens hearts:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:


Isa 44: 9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint.
13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?
20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Ps 78:28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
33 Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble. 34 When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. 36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
38 But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

Ps 81:10 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.

The question is about God's goodness, not sovereignty (which I do understand). Sovereignty does not equal goodness or holiness.

And what sin were the Egyptian people guilty of? If it is the same sin we all are guilty of, whether that be being born in sin, or actually committing various sins (nobody is perfect), why did God not kill every Egyptian, rather than just the first born, and why did He not kill the Israelites?

"Could not"? What does that say about God's power and sovereignty? But He did violate Pharaoh's free will -- He hardened his heart. And He did "soften" the people's hearts toward the Israelites.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

If God had not done that, Pharaoh would have let them go. Otherwise, this verse makes no sense.

Is that what the Bible says about the plagues?

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Exodus 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.

16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Not to mention strong delusion God sent in 2 Thess 2:11.

Were the plagues God's judgments on sin? I don't see where the Bible says that. Unless it was the Pharaoh's "sin" of not letting the Israelites go make sacrifices (that was the story Moses gave, anyway), the result of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. And what do I think that means? In the case of Pharaoh (according to Exodus), I think it means God did something to Pharaoh to make him be stubborn. And if He had not done that, God knew what would have happened: the Israelites would have been let go, plain and simple. Exodus 4:21. What do you think it means?

God is immutable. He doesn't change. He is also no respecter of persons or nations. He treats them all the same. If God hardens a heart (makes it obstinate or stubborn) then He has good reason and perfect foreknowledge.

God drove the Canaanites out of the land because of their sins not because of how good the Israelites were.

Deut 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

God did judge Egypt for their sins and not for Pharoah's sin of disobeying God by not letting the people go. The Egyptian ruler had Hebrew babies thrown into the river. Egypt was called the iron furnace of affliction for Israel. How sinful was Egypt? I don't know.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Lastly why did God send a strong delusion? Can you see the irony?

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The problem is are you using the bible definition of what is good and what is evil? Let's use a different term....righteousness and unrighteousness... or Holy and Un-Holy....

And His mercy endures forever. Except when it doesn't.

Thanks, I had forgotten about that promise. So, the plagues were God's judgment for four hundred years of afflicting the Jews. At least, they punished the generation that happened to be alive at the time, for the sins of their fathers and leaders. But does it justify interfering with Pharaoh's "free will"?

And if it was sinful to enslave the children of Israel, how is it OK for them (at God's orders) to enslave, e.g., the virgin girls of the Midianites (Numbers 31)?

OK, what is the Bible definition of these terms?

God "IS" angry at the wicked everyday.

We love to say he is the "I AM".

Well he is the "is" in "is" Angry.

Take your chances and remember to memorize Rev 22:11

This question was answered earlier by mizpeh

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

It really gets me sometimes that people think God is this all loving and forgiving and everything should just be so, so. Like salvation comes for free. These verses are God's way of saying "if you insist on continously sinning then I will give you over to it" What destroyed the Egyptians is the fact they knew of God and still refused to serve. A father will only bail is son out of jail so many times before he finally just leaves him in to hopefully make him understand. Serving God would mean the Pharoh would have had to give up a tradition of rulership, gold, treasure, power. God in his forsight knew that would never change, it hasn't to this day.

People like to hold on to the scripture of Gods love and mercy, but shun the words of "true and rightous judgements". They often don't like to look at Sodom and Gomora, the plagues of Egypt or the husband and wife that drop dead at the diciples feet for lying. We were created by Him, for Him. Yes you have free will, worship and exalt Him and be rewarded with everlasting love and grace, or turn away from Him and die. Its not rocket science.

Let me see if I understand, now. Every Egyptian family was evil. Besides the taskmasters, there were farmers, merchants, tradesmen, artists, servants, teachers, etc. Mothers and fathers, and their children. All wicked. All deserved the boils, the lice, etc. And all deserved to find their oldest children dead in their beds. OK.

And none of that would have happened if their king had just let Moses' people go to make sacrifices in the wilderness, three days' journey. (BTW, is lying not wicked? Oh, not when God tells you to lie. OK.) And he would have let them go, if God had not interfered. Pharaoh would have done the right thing, but God made him do evil. God made Pharaoh do evil! So that He could perform these wonders. So they would know that He was God. So He could punish the wicked Egyptians. OK.

Do I get it, now?

In a nutshell , , , yes. (ooooo that burned didn't it, if not , it will)

Bro. why are you looking past the obvious, they refused to serve God. period. I don't care if they never enslaved the Jews. I don't care if they treated the Jews like kings!!!!! THE EGYPTIANS DID NOT SERVE GOD!! Good works will not save you. How many good people do you know right now but are not saved, you think they will go to heaven because they are good people?? If so I would like to see the scripture supporting that theory.. There is a lady living next door to me and my wife, nicest lady you would ever meet, has been a wonderful nieghbor. Think she is good and worthy of heaven?? Guess again!! She is atheist. (we are working on that little problem)

The Egyptians worshiped false gods, that was their evil. Even if Pharoh had of let the jews go, he was wrong, and no matter what the people of Egypt done everyday, they worshipped false gods. period. There fore God did not make Pharoh do evil, He gave him over to his evil(which is scripture)(see prior post).


Oh and another thing, me and my wife have lived good lives, we fear God and do our best to walk in his light. We have never raised a hand to anyone much less enslaved anyone. So please Bro. Timmy, enlighten me, did we deserve to loose our 18 yr old daughter in a car accident? I don't think so, but I don't question the will of God.

If the judgement of Egypt upsets you, by all means , don't read the book of Job.

Evil

There are two kinds...morally and physically. Physically generally refers to calamity or unfavorable events....tornadoes for example. God is said to be the creator of good and evil

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Yet God is not morally evil

Man does evil because his heart is evil and he thinks of evil things continually. This is to cause mischief. It's usually for selfish reasons.

God's actions, on the other hand, were not done out of capriciousness or mischief. They were done for the cause of a greater moral end. In the cases discussed here it was for His chosen people, to protect them and to bless them.

In some cases God brought actions against them...it was still for the same moral cause for a different end...to correct them.

God does not do evil. He does justice and righteousness.

Man does things because he wants to sin. He does things for selfish motives. He does things out of malicious intent...on whims. Man does thing "evil" NOT out of a sense of righteous justice...that is evil.

God's actions on Pharoah were for the benefit of Israel and all the posterity that would learn from those that oppose God.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

God knows all the hearts of men. He knows what is really in them and He knows if they have faith and if they will convert.

God is Holy which means He is separate from fallen creation. God is not a man that He should lie....so He is also not a man that he should fornicate or commit anything else that is an attribute of the fallen human nature. The Law is made for man. Nobody can judge God but even if we could we have to look at intent. We'd have to understand what HE understands and know what HE knows.

They worshiped and served false gods. They did not regard the one True God that created them.

BTW the idea of lying and not telling the truth with God is also found in Mal 3 where it says God can not change. Trinitarians try to use this erroneously to show that God can't become the Son (as in modalism)...though that is shooting themselves in the foot since they teach God became a man.

This verse is NOT meant to mean God can't change like that. It's talking about His promises. God promises something and does NOT go back on it. If God says something, what He says is the truth. When God promises something....whatever HE promised was not a deception.

So how did God lie?

BTW how do you know Pharoah would have let them go? How do you know Pharoah would have done the right thing? God can not make anyone do good or evil. All God can do is something external to us and we react to it. Our reaction is of our own volition. Pharoah COULD have let the people go regardless. What did God do? GOd did not change Pharoah's person...He did not control Pharoah the person. HE controlled His creation and Pharoah reacted.

God did not make you or I be saved....Instead God did things that we reacted to in the right eway....others reject God despite what good HE does for them. But if God could make everyone do good or evil then everyone would be saved right now. We would all be as Holy as He is, for God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God can't FORCE us to do anything. He can't make us believe or not. He can't make us be righteous or not. That is our choice. But He can try to influence us externally

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I understand what you're saying. It's still hard for me to reconcile the severity of God's judgments with His goodness. And with logic, for that matter. He performed the wonders in Egypt to show that He was God, and the prove His power (besides the judgment aspect). If that was part of His reason, and especially regarding the Egyptians themselves, was He expecting them to repent of their ways, and start serving Him? Did the wonders serve their purpose?

I'm not sure how the Egyptians were expected to know that the Israelites' God was the real deal, until it was pretty much too late. First, there was the trick of Aaron's rod turning into a snake, but Pharaoh's magicians copied that one (and many of the plagues, too -- that's pretty weird, right there). Aaron's snake devouring the others was impressive, but, uh, couldn't that just be because Aaron was a better illusionist (from the Egyptians' point of view)? Then with each of the plagues, things got more and more interesting. One might imagine God asking "Do you love me now? No?" WHAM! Another plague. But it wasn't even that fair: He didn't give them a chance to repent. He didn't even give Pharaoh a chance to repent and let the people go. He kept hardening Pharaoh's heart!

Each of these nations and cities that opposed Israel had their own history. Each generation grew up believing what their parents taught them. How could they be expected just to drop the worship of their gods in favor of the Israelites' God? I don't recall the Israelites even trying to evangelize them much, if any. Most often, it was brutally conquer first, ask questions later.

I was referring to the premise Moses gave Pharaoh: let his people go three days' journey, to offer sacrifices to their God. But the real plan was to escape, forever, as we know now. Was that not a lie?

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

How else can this be understood, but that God did something to Pharaoh to prevent him from letting the people go? There would have been no need to "harden" his heart, if he wouldn't have let them go anyway.

I see...you are assuming that by not telling them God KNEW ahead of time Pharoah would reject their request, ultimately leading to Israel leaving Egypt behind was God lying? NOr does this statement mean "and we don't intend to return"...Mount Sinai was about three days journey from Egypt

That's not a lie.

God's acts upon Egypt hardened his heart. Some peopel harden their hearts at what God does and others soften them....even Israel hardened their hearts

Pharoah hardened his heart out of bitterness of what God did...taking Israel out of Egypt. Israel were the slaves and were the ones building Pharoah's kingdom. All work stopped when they left. This no doubt made him bitter against Israel and God as evidenced by his attempting to over take them on the way out of Egypt

Is God good? Jesus answered that question: "...there is none good but God..." That is answer enough. Anything beyond that leads us to question God, His righteousness, His mercy. Why question His goodness, His methods? Just be thankful that He is and be thankful He has shown His goodness to us. His ways, I believe we are told, are past finding out.

So that's why Israel didn't come back? You mean they would have returned after the sacrifices, if Pharaoh hadn't kept rejecting the requests to go on a three days' journey? I think God knew the real plan (escape forever), all along. In fact, He foretold it to Abraham.

So why did Moses tell Pharaoh they wanted to offer sacrifices a three days' journey away? Why not tell him they wanted their freedom?

If my son asked one evening if he could go to a friend's house to watch a movie, but after the movie he was really planning to spend the night there, leaving that detail out, I'd have called that a lie.

I am not claiming that God is evil, just asking what we can learn about that question in the Bible. If we cannot determine whether He is good from what He does (i.e., cannot determine whether His actions are good or evil), then I guess you're right. All we have is the explicit statements like the one you point out. In other words, it doesn't matter what He does: it's all good, by definition. Slashing pregnant women, in the right situation and for the right reasons, is good. Killing children is good, if it's for the purpose of proving that He is powerful (that is one of the reasons given).

As for showing us His goodness, you have a point, there. But again, if we are to believe that it was His actions that, say, kept us from serious harm in a car wreck, why can we not conclude the opposite when He doesn't protect us? We say, "Isn't God good" when nice things happen. But nobody's allowed to even consider that He may not be good, if our child is killed, or if we lose our house to foreclosure, or etc. etc. If a human knows to do what is right, but does not, we say he is evil. Can't say that about God, of course. He is sovereign. His ways are not our ways. He knows better what we really need. Etc.

BTW, I don't blame God for such bad things, either. Don't misunderstand me. My only point in all this is that it seems like a gigantic double standard. God gets a free pass, no matter what. And I am also not saying that if a man were to kill some kids, to prove that he could and to punish their parents for something, it wouldn't be an evil act. It definitely would be. And yes, I know. That man isn't God. That's my point! Man does something awful like that, it's an evil act. God does the same thing, it's good.

I think that refers to the final act where Pharoah went after Israel. It was all those acts before that that hardened his heart

No you were the one that was saying they were gonna come back but that was not God's plan. I was only giving a plausible explation to your assumption

I already told you, i twas a three days journey to where God wanted them to go and worship and serve Him. Pharoah seemed to think this meant their freedom.....otherwise why not just let the go and return if that is what Moses meant and not rather their freedom?

And that was the plan
Exo 6:6 Say therefore to the people of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment.

Exo 6:10 So the LORD said to Moses,
Exo 6:11 "Go in, tell Pharaoh king of Egypt to let the people of Israel go out of his land."
Exo 6:12 But Moses said to the LORD, "Behold, the people of Israel have not listened to me. How then shall Pharaoh listen to me, for I am of uncircumcised lips?"

Is your son a slave? Is he not every allowed to leave the house? Does he have guards watching him day and night to prevent him from leaving the house? If he did and then he demanded "Let me leave this place and go to my friends house"

See, once again you are assuming the original request was simply to leave on a vacation and return, nothing in the text says that. Second let say your son comes back then says "now I want to go to my other friends house and play a game" was that a lie because he did not tell you?

What if you were a cruel atheist father and he asks if he can go to church this sunday? You say NO! and all you will get for dinner is a cracker. And then so he runs away to live with other family members that will let him go to church EVERY sunday...was that a lie?

Timmy, what if I told you I think you were a nice person.....but I did not tell you I thought your hair looked dumb..does that make me a liar? Do I need to tell you everything?

He made a request and that request was rejected. Lets assume you are right and the request was for a 3 day vacation and not rather to leave....Just because God's ultimate desire was for Israel to be out of Egypt forever does not make the original request a lie. Thats like saying me asking you for ice cream when what I would rather have is cake is a lie...sure Id rather have it but that does not make my request for ice cream just because Id rather have cake

I didn't mean that. I meant that was the story that God (through Moses) gave Pharaoh. In fact, He let Moses in on the real plan:

Exodus 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

In v 17, God says He will bring them to Canaan, the Promised Land. There's no possibility of going back to Egypt. But in v 18, Moses is to ask Pharaoh for permission to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifice. He clearly meant for Pharaoh to think it was a round trip.

He may have suspected it, seeing through the deception, that's true. Once, he did suggest that they leave their cattle behind (collateral), for example. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a deception!

Do they today? People can see the wonders of God today and still they walk away.

They knew from the beginning of time. Much of what you are saying is a sad reflection of today. I'm not sure how many people in the world today are "expected" to know God is the real deal and when they do realize it , it may be too late. Are they thus somehow automaticly saved?

Again, they knew from the beginning of time. How many times has God already placed judgement on them. The ark, sodem and gomora, and they all still returned to their old ways of serving other gods. Even Israel was guilty of the same, they barely were out of Egypt when they created the golden calf, they had just seen a miracle of God in parting the Red sea yet they still turned from Him. And it never says God hardened their hearts. I have often asked that question myself, "What about those who don't know?" what about the atheist who were raised that way and never told about God. What about the Muslims who know nothing but the way they were raised? what about tribes in Africa, in the jungles? Are all of these just automaticaly "saved" on the basis of ignorance of the truth.? If so , you may have an argument. But I don't see it. I see a people from the beginning of time, created by God and taught the truth from the beginning, not once, but twice (when Noah came off the ark, everyone aboard knew the truth, someone had to stray) and yet time and again man has turned to his own gods, and time and again he was punished. Even Israel, why do you think they were slaved in Egypt to begin with?

David sings in the book of Psalms, God is a just God, His judgements are rightous. It is mans pride that would rather find fault with what God judges than accept fault in ourselves.

Yes you DID mean that. You just said he was deceiving Pharaoh into thinking it was a round trip. My point is there is nothing in what he said that suggests they were coming back. It was not a deception and even if the intention was that they would come back that does not make the original request a deception just because God knows Pharaoh would reject it

Is this age. I use the word age only to refer to time. When we meet him in Eternity God will not be so god to all!

Take your chances!

I wasn't saying "they were going to come back". I was saying that that was the story Moses was giving Pharaoh. Moses knew they would not. But asking for permission to go three days' journey to offer sacrifices was clearly intended to give Pharaoh the impression that they planned to return. If that were not true, again, why didn't Moses just say it clearly: "We want our freedom. Let us go." Otherwise, it makes no sense to mention the three days' journey, and it makes no sense to discuss with Pharaoh what and who would be going along on this journey. Ex 10:7-10.