Book of hebrews
 

I read quite a deep study of the book of Hebrews by Andrew Murray. "THE HOLIEST OF ALL." Murray really did the best job I've seen anyone do with Hebrews.

This sparked me to start this thread about that book. It seems the entire book focuses on the holiest of holies, and getting in there by faith, to overcome all life's battles.

Anyone interested can chime in.

I've heard Hebrews is focused on "the better covenant" and the key word being "better". I think that is certainly a huge part of it, since Hebrews contrasts the old covenant with the new, because a wholesale backsliding was taking place with Jewish believers in the first century, giving rise to the need for this book. It convinces Jews that this current new covenant is God's will for them.

Now, I hope to see no nonsensical notions that the new covenant Hebrews is talking about is not our current covenant. Please take that claptrap elsewhere. (I hope I just did not attract that hyper-dispensationalist element on the forum to this thread by saying that).

Anyway, let's dive in.

Hebrews says more about the right hand seating of Christ, it seems, than any other book of the Bible. The very first chapter is no exception. And what is wonderful is the right hand seating corresponds to the ark of the covenant's mercyseat, in the holiest of holies. So, we get the picture of the holiest of holies from the start.

Heb 1:8 KJV But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

As we contionue in Hebrews, we learn this verse indicates the right hand seating, for that is the throne upon which Jesus sat.

Psa 110:1-2 KJV A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (2) The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Anyone interested in Murray's book it is here:

https://johnruffle.files.wordpress.c...rew-murrey.pdf

Re: Book of hebrews
 

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Hebrews 1:1-2)

This sets the tone for the entire epistle. It is also a statement of basic apostolic hermeneutics. God spake in times past to the fathers through the prophets, but now in 'these last days' (the Days of Messiah) God has spoken to us (the apostolic, new covenant ekklesia) 'by His Son'. The Greek literally says 'in (the) Son'.

Meaning God's message to mankind is found in Jesus Christ. This is another way of saying the same thing John said in his gospel, in the beginning was the Word... and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us... Jesus Christ - His person, His work, His death, His resurrection, His doctrine, etc... the entire 'Christ event', is the Message of God to mankind.

That rules out other 'messages from God'. God is not speaking to mankind through Mohammed, Sri Rajneesh, Donald Trump, Reverend Moon (the one from Korea), or anyone else. He speaks to us IN THE SON.

In fact, the message of the prophets of old (as Hebrews will later point out) is the same message found in the Son. The Son is the fulfillment of all that went before. Not in the sense that the Son is the 'replacement', but that the Son is the SUBSTANCE of what was given before. The message given from God through His prophets in days of old, that same message WAS MADE FLESH.

So all God's speaking to us nowadays is centered in the Son, the incarnation of deity in human nature.

It says the Son is appointed heir of all things. This is reiterated by Paul here:

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(Romans 4:13-16)

God had promised Abraham that he would be the heir of the world. This of course was extended to his descendants. But it was not to be realised under the law, or by the deeds of the law, but by faith. That is, it is to be realised under the terms of the new covenant, it is realised in CHRIST by faith. Christ inherits the world (see Great Commission) and we share in that inheritance by faith.

People may not like to admit it or to acknowledge it, but the church of God shall indeed inherit the world, through faith in Christ. Why? Because Christ owns it all, and it shall ALL be submitted to him (even death itself shall be abolished).

It also says 'by whom he made the worlds'. It is not by a Second Person, or an 'archangelic spirit creature', that God made the worlds, as if God were a general contractor and the Son was a hireling. No, God made the worlds 'by the Son'. Notice, it is THE SON, which speaks to the incarnation. One cannot speak of the Son without reference to the incarnation. He is the 'son of God' BECAUSE he was born by a miracle of the Spirit, causing the virgin Mary to conceive. He is the 'son of God' BECAUSE he is the Christ, the son of David, lawful heir to the throne of Israel, King over God's people.

So when it says the worlds were created 'by the Son', that is, that God created 'by the Son', what is this saying? How could God have created everything way back in the beginning 'by the Son' when the Son hadn't even come into existence yet?

Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Wisdom says this:

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
(Proverbs 8:22-31)

So what is Hebrews saying? The same thing Paul said here:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:23-24)

Christ, the Son, is the WISDOM OF GOD incarnate. When it says 'by whom also he made the worlds' the writer to the Hebrews is declaring that the Son is the Wisdom of God. The Hebrews would have known that God made the worlds 'by wisdom', and now it is declared this wisdom of God is the Son. That is to say, Christ is the wisdom of God incarnate in human nature. And since Christ is the incarnate wisdom of God, there is no wisdom or knowledge of God APART FROM CHRIST.

I'ts ALL in Him!

Re: Book of hebrews
 

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
(Hebrews 1:10-12)

The others things attributed as being spoken to or concerning the Son prior to this may be explained as referring to the special place the MAN Christ Jesus has in God's economy. However, THIS passage can only mean one thing altogether: That the Son is indeed YHVH Himself.

The author is referring to this Psalm:

I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.
(Psalms 102:24-28)

The Psalm is clearly speaking of God Himself. Isaiah 44 likewise makes the same declarations, that God Himself created everything 'alone', nobody was with him. the only thing with him was his own power and wisdom (which as we have seen are incarnate in Christ). So now the book of Hebrews states the same thing, essentially, that the Son is none other than God Himself in human nature.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Hebrews 1:3)

Christ is the 'brightness' of God's glory. Think of a lightbulb. It is turned on, it gives off energy. We 'see' that energy, we perceive something called 'light' or 'brightness'. So then Christ is the PERCEPTION of God's glory. Christ is not merely a 'reflection' of God's glory, he is the very 'brightness' of God's glory. He is the very quality of the perceptibleness of God's glory. In other words, when we see the Son, we see the Father. When we look upon the Son, we are looking upon the GLORY OF GOD.

He is the 'express image' of God's person. That term, 'express image' is in the Greek the word 'character'. It means this:

χαρακτήρ
charaktēr
khar-ak-tar'
From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person), that is, (by implication) engraving ([“character”], the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.

Christ is the very 'engraving' of God's hypostasis (substance). He is Deity 'engraved' in human nature. He is 'the figure (of Deity) stamped' in human nature. He is 'God manifested in the flesh'. The man is a human representation, a PERFECT representation, of God Himself. Not a mere 'likeness', like Adam was, but 'in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily', meaning the very essence of Deity itself was somehow incarnated in human nature as this man named Jesus.

Christ is the visible image of God. That is to say, Christ, the Son of God, is the way we perceive and know God, and that as directly as is possible to human beings.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
(Hebrews 2:1-3)

Just a quick thought: A lot of people think (erroneously) that 'the Old Testament is mean and harsh, but the New Testament is all love and sweetness.' Yet this verse tells us that disobedience to the Message of Salvation, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is an even greater and more sure guarantee of destruction. If the old covenant punished trespassers for EVERY transgression, then so much the more shall we be punished if we neglect the salvation offered in Christ.

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which plenty of people seem anxious to define for you, yet Christ Himself restates in ways that they are not comfortable with.
Do not be deceived, little children...

Re: Book of hebrews
 

I could not find that quote in the KJV: so I would not now
the context.

Please enlighten me with chapter and verse. I would suggest
that content and context should agree, firstly with the gospel.

A different opinion brings forth division; that is to say, another
viewpoint (di=two; vision= view). However, with God there is
no division, because His is the ONLY viewpoint to consider. If the
end result (context) contradicts another scripture [with the same
content,] the problem does not lie with God: it is man's problem.
Without the Holy Spirit, surely we ALL suffer from myopia (this,
of course, refers doubly to those who WILL NOT or can not be led
by the Holy Spirit)!

"I write unto you, little children because your sins are
forgiven for HIS NAME's sake."

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1John7Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

And of that must be taken into consideration with the entirety of what the rest of the Bible teaches about the same subject.

Christ's actions, not ours, make us righteous.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This makes righteousness a free gift, not earnings or wages as the result of working.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

And God's righteousness is what we are given.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Even Jesus said to seek God's righteousness, not our own.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Self-righteousness is what is attained by self's efforts to be good.

So, when we read he that does righteousness is righteous, our interpretation cannot conflict with these other passages. And when we reconcile all references to righteousness, the truth comes to light.

John said the one who does righteousness is righteous. He did not say the doing comes before, as though it CAUSES one to be righteous. It is saying the one who IS righteous is the one who does righteousness. How did that righteousness come about? John's verse did not say. He only said the person who already is will manifest an d indicate that by their deeds.

John spoke much of deeds.

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Walking in darkness is living a lifestyle of sinning. Walking in light is doing righteous deeds. So, John is saying claims are betrayed as false when one walks in darkness.

But he's careful to remind us that those who are in the light are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus, which is a reference to the work of the cross.... yes, that pesky cross that excludes adherents to all other religions and faiths that deny Jesus had to die in sacrifice for our salvation and righteousness.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We all have sin and require His blood to cleanse us. And the cleansing is related to forgiveness through the work of the cross, where the blood was shed. It's not enough to repent. I repent daily. But I must repent on the basis of my acknowledgement that the work of the cross is the only means whereby God will forgive us, and without faith in it, there is no forgiveness.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And the text continues, when we're not supposed to stop at a chapter end to follow it, by saying the advocacy of Christ for us to the Father is a vital part of what is the remedy for us if we sin. And the advocate always points ONLY to the cross, when He recognizes our faith in it, which is what instigates his intercession. Without that faith in the cross there is no intercession.

Then John reverts back to lifestyle again.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This is similar to the John verse Shazeep quoted. The ones who know God are the ones who keep His commandments. They do not sin. But again, it is because of what chapter 1 said. The blood of the cross cleanses us.

John continues.

1 John 2:4-6 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We should be living as Christ did if we truly know God. Being IN CHRIST is what is described as truly knowing God. And how do we get into Christ? It's by the same means whereby we are made righteous. We exert a genuine faith from our hearts that His death is our deaths. We come into union with Him at the point of His death. So, it always and never fails to go back to the cross. And it's not this false accusation of empty lip service, but as I have repeated, it is the genuine faith in the heart that only God can see that determines if we've been put into His death. But you have to have faith in that death in order to be put into it,. And that is where we also get His righteousness.

Abiding in Him is not a crossless good life of righteous deeds. Ha! It is getting into union with Christ who is the vine and we are branches. His life flows through us like sap from a vine into the branches. Paul said that is only accomplished by us being crucified with Him, that HIS VERY LIFE AND FAITH manifest through our lives. He actually indwells us and lives through us. It's not copying his behaviour as though we imitate Him, like Thomas Aquinas erringly proposed. He actually indwells us and lives through us. He was on the cross to die as us, but He is inside us to live as us.

And the commandment John wrote was not new but yet is new. John continues to write about antichrists who deny the relationship of actual Father and actual Son in Jesus Christ and God, which clarifies what it means to propose Jesus came in the flesh. He came in the flesh, BUT BY INCARNATION THROUGH BEGETTING OF THE FATHER, which false religions deny. Oh, they like His good deeds and His miracles, but that pesky begetting of the Father and the work of the cross -- the beginning of the Son and the end of the earthly life of the Son 00 begetting and the cross -- are the two vital things we find the Bible focusing on, that false religions deny.

1 John 2:23-26 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Why does John write these things about the Father actually BEGETTING the Son, making God a begetter? It is so that no one will seduce us!

So, when we read, "Do not be deceived," that CONTEXT of this epistle is saying that in reference to the elements of His birth after being begotten, and the work of the cross in providing us cleansing from sin, and consciously abiding in Christ through union to His death that John has in mind.

Be not deceived? You better believe it! But in PROPER CONTEXT!

And here it comes:

1 John 3:4-7 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Notice the context wherein we read about deception, is conjoined and united to the concepts of Jesus MANIFESTED to take away our sins. How did He do so? By the blood that chapter 1 mentioned. Cleansing us from sin BY THE BLOOD.

We cannot get away from it. Talk about deception and righteous deeds! Please do! But don't rip out the elements that are intrinsically involved in John's context: THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS, JESUS LITERALLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER. the two things false religion will scream against in fury!

Amen. Do not be deceived with scripture taken out of context.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Good scripture.
Many of us neglect that the intention of obedience, and that
makes a big difference. Just as in worship, obedience should
be "...in Spirit and in truth...". Else, it is not a work of
righteousness: it is only a "work of the flesh"![/B]

We must be disposed to"Judge righteous judgment."

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Amen, Esaias. It's all focused on Christ.

Hebrews 1 emphasizes the enthronement of Christ.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

It's the right hand seating of Psalm 110.

A sidenote shows us the heavens being rolled up like a vesture, waxing old like a garment.

Chapter 8 reveals this to actually be talking about COVENANTS.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

And this is the crux of Hebrews. From one inferior covenant to the next superior one.

But the focus is on the SON. Actually "begotten," genuinely "conceived" in Mary's womb and made KING.

Not a mere angel. Greater than prophets.

Jesus was a man. Mankind was made a little lower than angels. Man does not have all things put under him as the Psalm foretold would occur. But in Jesus this is true! He is crowned and in Him all things are put under mankind.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

"For thou hast made him a little lower than El-ohym..."

Jesus was not made lower than the angels, for then would the
angels rule over him. No: Jesus was made a SON, lower than
God himself, but with a higher calling than the angels. Man, on
the other hand, was made in "...the figure of him that was to
come..."; therefore, also with a higher calling than the angels:
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things
that pertain to this life?"

If we are indeed sitting with the Lord in heavenly places
now, shall we not also judge with Him in those things that
are eternal?

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Why is the Greek term in Hebrews "AGGELOS"... angels? I do not see why being made lower than \angels means angels have rule over him. It just means there is weakness in humanity compared to angels. Not subservience.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

'Elohiym - may be applied to angels, or even men, as in Psa. 82:1; Psa. 97:7; Psa. 138:1; Exo. 21:6; Exo. 22:8-9.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Because the quote is from Psalm 8, and in Psalm 8, when it reads "Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels...", the Hebrew word rendered "angels" is elohim.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Correct, my Brother. Context corresponds to content, and
vice versa.
There is context in surrounding scripture; and scriptures that
present doctrines that should be interpreted thematically. For
example: Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38-39; and 1 Cor 15:1-4, have the
same theme, which is the Gospel that saves.

(1) The word "gods" does not refer to the Creator;
(2) the word "gods" COULD refer to the Lord's congregation;;
(3) false idols are called "gods".

Leading of the Holy Spirit will always trump man's logic.

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"But he's careful to remind us that those who are in the light are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus, which is a reference to the work of the cross.... yes, that pesky cross that excludes adherents to all other religions and faiths that deny Jesus had to die in sacrifice for our salvation and righteousness."

and so you would make Christ available only to those who have chosen the right religion, and gotten baptized--and re-baptized--"correctly," when Christ baptizes with the Spirit, and even your next paragraph quoting Scripture holds no such restrictions:

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

and of course we make "confess our sins" into an emotional, religious act, when it can be as simple as saying "I'm sorry for doing ________, please forgive me." And which is easier, doing this, or condemning Mother Teresa to hell?

Over and above this, how do you expect your divisive approach to yield any fruit different from what it has already yielded, that being hundreds of divided Christians, and even quite a few different OP sects? People getting "re-baptized" in water? Really? There is only one Church, because there is only one Christ, and Scripture makes it very plain how one might identify His followers. And wearing a cross around your neck is prolly not going to cut it.

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You might accept the Spirit of Christ, and do what pretty much no one else does, which is to encourage life in others, seeking where you agree, and apologizing when you are wrong. Now, you will become blind to other's sins, and you won't get to cast stones anymore, or see yourself as the big dog in the mirror, and you will get taken advantage of sometimes, and everyone will think you are nuts, but you might, if you hold out to the end, be saved.

You will be confronted with your codependence every day, as you seek interdependence, which requires a change in pov, even dissolving your pov in a sense, as this is a big part of self. And this is admittedly tough; but the alternative is to indulge in self-worship, pointing out all who are lost and throwing stones at them from the middle of a pack of your peers, rather than standing with the condemned in forgiveness.

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I understand it is ELOHIM in the Psalm, but still the writer of Hebrews said ANGELS.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Again, Elohim is used to speak to even men and angels in some instances, though. See references above.

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I make nothing available to anyone. It's just what God said, and you're tearing it up.

All of what you quoted is written with the need for faith in the cross so intertwined in it all that it renders your words to be saying something like, "2+2=4 cannot be so restrictive, and should allow for 2+2=5." That's just how much the blood and the cross are integrated into the entirety of all such scripture.

It has nothing with choosing right religion, and this betrays your repeated error. There is a God. He leads honest hearts to truth. It is outside our control other than His use of us to be instrumental in doing this with others.

There is indeed restrictions in 1 John 1:8-10, and you missed what I said about that.

1 John 1: 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That must be read with the verses you cite. You tear out that part of the context every time it's there, just as in the reference to "Be not deceived." The same chapter, for goodness' sake, makes the restriction. It's not me. Its's the book.

Not at all. When the bible demands faith in the cross and the shed blood of Christ to be part and parcel with forgiveness, that leaves no room for confession to be empty and only a claim without true heart-engendered repentance.

Again, this is not divisive except for God causing the division, Himself. I only repeat what the word says, without reasoning some kind of more easier bend on the picture that is not actually there, and reading it into it all.

WHen it comes to divided "Christians" who genuinely believe the work of the cross provides us with the only righteousness with which we could ever hope to impress God, I leave that to God to judge. We only know those religions that deny the work of the cross as being vital for salvation are lost.

Who said anything about wearing across? lol

People do get rebaptized. Even the disciples of John the baptists did in scripture! Read Acts 19!

There is only one Church, and the bible says there are those who cry Lord Lord to Jesus and are not in it!

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I speak light and life to others. Christ is the life, and no one can achieve that life and light without the cross Christ died on and paid for our sins with. And His resurrection that follows tHis death is the only LIFE we can ever have that is eternal. But without the death of the cross that resurrection life is not possible.

You're simply blinded to the work of the cross. Severely blinded.

I'm not casting stones, and not thinking I am a big dog, since I am NOTHING. I can only relate what the Word says. And the message of the cross cannot be released like some may want it to be when they relate the word.

I am nothing. Christ is everything. I died with Him on the cross. His rescue of me is not anything I can brag about. Please do not continue to be blind about this. It's gone on way too long. The only way I could be saved is to realize this self and any inkling of a big ME had to die, since I could do nothing, let alone be someone, on my own to be saved, without the only remedy for myself that was fgit -- death on the cross with Him. And without that self denying death, showing God I agree nothing about me is worthy of earning my way to glory, I could never be saved.

You might do well to consider how you constantly throw in good works to earn salvation the way you defend the salvation by works in those who deny Christ even so much as died, let alone is Lord. For THAT, my friend, is the largest case of self and the biggest case of refusal to deny of self that exists. And each time we use bible to say there is no way to glory without the cross, we are ruining the word.

Self is released right from the get=-go when one realizes the cross demands death with ourselves and Christ, and without that death there is no salvation. It's too integrated in the the word to release. It really is!

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ok well when your rebaptisms result in speaking in other languages and prophesying let me know, and meanwhile do what you think is best from your understanding. But i have asked you many questions now that never really got answered--not that all questions need answers--and more inclusive answers are there in Scripture, even if they lead you away from Us 4 And No More.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

It's not us 4 and n more. It's what the word says.

List some questions. i ask many of you that never get answered, especially when it's scriptural, but cannot recall missing yours.

List one and I will answer it. I would like the same courtesy though, but alas...

And rebaptisms do indeed result in speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

I speak light and life to others

ya, unless they are Catholic or Muslim. I offered to you what you offer to them; why don't you accept it?

I'm not casting stones

:lol ok

I am nothing

if not the Pentecostal Inquisition. If you saw yourself as nothing your message would be "forgive me, Father, for i am a sinner," not "everyone who does not find my Jesus is lost."

You might do well to consider how you constantly throw in good works to earn salvation the way you defend the salvation by works in those who deny Christ

so you either refuse to understand how works are necessary, even while they are not what will "save" you, or you really are not able to see it. I don't know which. As to the last part, the Good Samaritan apparently didn't proselytize the guy in the ditch--or if he did we are not privvy to the conversation--and that is Christ's story, not mine. Yes, it seems that Christ put the cart before the horse where salvation is concerned, telling us to go and do likewise. Was Christ telling us that good works will save you? I don't think so; but faith without works is dead, so if both are truth then there is obviously another lesson about the heart in the GS passage. I notice you also continue to suggest that i am defending someone else's salvation by works who has denied Christ; see that i am suggesting a different concept of Christ here, Christ the Spirit, that must be accepted imo.

Self is released right from the get=-go when one realizes the cross demands death with ourselves and Christ, and without that death there is no salvation.

Yes, but satan seeks to reengage our egos at every turn, and identifying with a doctrine works as well as anything. We then get caught up in defending the doctrine as a matter of pride, and next thing you know we're no longer that guy saying, "forgive me, Father," but "they are all lost."

They are God's children, too. If you seek God in everyone, rather than looking for satan, granted you will have to come down off of that throne, but Scripture sure starts to make more sense, and you don't have to have all these areas where you can't give an answer because it would reveal the holes in your belief system, which btw you cannot have any actual faith in unless you believe in (have faith in) sin and death, which imo is why Christ remains this icon on the wall that so many never get any closer to than pointing at, repeatedly, not understanding how one even gets into a relationship with Him.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Your idea of light is, "You don't have to obey the bible and accept the work of the cross as your only means of righteousness. If the bible says so, forget that, and just be sincere in what you are already doing."

Sorry, bro., that's not light.

Laugh all you like. It's not stones to tell someone the truth in the bible is the only way to be saved.

I always pray that way. It's not MY Jesus. It's what the word says.

This is where you confuse things:

The bible says:

Mark 1616 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And you cannot see how that applies to anybody! You say we should take scripture and see how we can find common ground with others like catholics and muslims. So, I ask you how that verse applies to them in the way you ask me to apply it, and you say you do not know.

It's all talk until actual verses like these come up. And then you run and plug your ears saying, "lalalala I cannot hear you," and then revert to accusing of casting stones.

I absolutely deny good works to earn salvation. lol. If there's anything I stressed in our chats it's been the work of the cross ALONE gives us righteousness, hence saves us. But it's the same old , "Lalalala." :)

Works are necessary. But, like you said, they do not save us. But we have to understand how that made the difference between law and grace., And when I explained Law only came to prove it is not of works you claimed you never heard that before, as if I dreamed it up. And when I presented renowned scholars who claim the same, you did not comment.

Christ never used that story to teach how to get saved though.

No, He did not put it before the horse, and again He did not use that to teach us how to get saved.

I already said that before, and lalalala.... again

Yes, and that's what I have always maintained. But you never see it. Works are important. But they don't save. so why say this?

You actually quoted my thoughts in this post earlier.

You mean, without the cross one can be saved?

But you determine judging when someone simply repeats the judgment the word gave, and you won't discuss that. So, what can we say when you don't dialogue about these issues?

Carrying the cross is denying self, disallowing the enemy to work. So long as we deny self, the enemy cannot engage a person. But again you think it i is ego to warn someone like a watchman on a wall warns.

I always pray for forgiveness. YOu are taking chats on here as knowing my life and my prayers. I thought it was a given that chats on here can't even scratch the surface of a person's life.

God's children are those born of the water and Spirit. You must have been born again if you are a child of God.

But this is the sort of philosophy people like you hold when they deny plain bible statements. You think John's words about those who do righteous are righteous, actually means salvation by works. And you think women literally bearing babies is what Paul meant by salvation in child birth. You have all of these erroneous means of salvation that exclude the cross, and never realize everything the bible says flows as a unit, and you cannot, and I cannot., exclude the salvation yb the cross in any of them like you are doing.

It's not looking for satan. And God is not in everyone. Unless you're a pantheist. But even then it's still not rue.
lol

You simply have no room for all the word. Ezekiel 3 and Ezekiel 33 especially exposes your error. No one can warn anyone of danger lest they be accused of judging. The watchman says "God told me you're in danger." You enable the listeners to respond saying, "LEt God tell me. You are judging me if you say it. It's not judging if you tell me nothing about my danger. Judge yourself, judge!" And you have effectively violated everything the watchman story instructs.

The only throne I have is being seated with Christ, but it's his glory , not mine.

You say there are holes but when asked you can never present them, unless you pull out a verse. But when asked to deal with the context of the verse, you run.

Relationship is what it's all about. But you deny the tenets and elements of how that comes about everytime you claim folks can be God's children without new birth, and claim the GS shows how to be saved.

You love to talk generalities and philosophies like this. You love to talk ABOUT the Bible. But when the bible is laid out and verses are shown to work together, you're off and away.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

The goal of the book of Hebrews is to bring us to a life where all our problems are faced in faith and overcoming power, and we stand in victory when Christ comes.

It deals with three things.

The heavenly sanctuary is open for us, and we need to take our places in it with Christ now.

The way to get there is the same way of sacrifice of self and perfect obedience that took Jesus in, Himself.

And thirdly, Jesus is our high priest and is the means by which we have blessings and a power to live everyday as people who in this world are as they've come to the heavenly (New) Jerusalem.

Basically the point is to know Christ more and more so that we see Him on the throne and claim the heavenly life for our time in this world.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Doctrinal issues are dealt with in Chapters 1 through 10:18. Then it becomes practical from 10:19.

Hebrews chapter 1:1-3 sets the theme of the book as the Glory of the Son of God in Who He is and His work.

1:4-14 shows the Son as superior than the angels.

2:1-4 gives a warning to receive the words of the Son.

2:5-18 Shows Jesus greater than angels as a man! And We are given reasons for His humiliation.

3:1-6 shows Jesus as superior to Moses.

3:7 - 4:14 presents a second warning which is to not come short of the promise God gave to the church.

4:14 - 5:10 Is about Jesus being greater than Aaron the high priest.

5:11 - 6:20 is about a third warning against spiritual laziness and backsliding.

7:1-13 is about the new priesthood that's after the order of Melchisedek.

8:1-13 is about new sanctuary and new covenant.

9:1-28 is about how powerful Christ's blood was to establish the new sanctuary and new covenant.

10:1-18 is about the new way that's been open into the holiest.


THE SECOND HALF OF HEBREWS BECOMES PRACTICAL AT THIS POINT. IT'S ABOUT LIVING THE HEAVENLY EMPOWERED LIFE ON EARTH.


10:19-25 Life inside the most holy place.

10:26-39 A fourth warning against purposeful sinning and backsliding.

11:1-40 Faith and its fulness

12:1-13 Patience provided in having hope.

12:14-29 A fifth warning to beware of sin and rejecting Christ.

13:1-25 Love and good works.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

meaning that i know just fine, but am not privy to your interactions with others, Mike, and cannot tell you how to seek God. In your place, i guess i would admit what a total sanctimonious A-wad i was, and once i had accepted that the definition of 'superiority complex' had my picture next to it, i would go observe some people who have learned how to pretend to be humble--as that countenance surely strikes you as disingenuous in the extreme--and then pretend they are...well, doesn't have to be a Muslim, does it, as pretty much everyone is condemned in your book, if they are not you.

I mean, wing it--you couldn't possibly do any worse than you are doing now, so what would be the harm?

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Again, you're blind to my words. It's not what I think, but what the word says.

But that was said about three dozen times already and you refused it then...

It's not me. It's what the word says. My opinion was cast away way back when I actually believed the bible. Try it.

But I also notice how the posts that actually deal with scripture are not responded to by yourself. Pesky word!

Oh that Ezekiel! Encouraging judges! Truth cannot be non-arbitrary!

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Man, i hate to tell you this, but you don't have a clue what the Word says, if you think you can condemn people you have never met to hell based upon their religion.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Sir, I'm sorry, but when the bible says that belief and baptism saves, and lack of belief damns, and we are meant to tell people like watchmen on the wall about those words of warning, and you call that judgmentalism, as if Ezekiel was off his rocker enabling judges to condemn people, you are far from what the word of God teaches. One's RELIGION is one's set of beliefs! And it is insane to say that it matters not what belief they hold about God, and that the claims made by Jesus and the apostles have no bearing on that when they distinctly said things that directly relate to what our religion is.


WOW. lol

Truth is not arbitrary, Shazeep. And if you would actually deal with what I actually said, instead of twisting it to say I deny the Lord's words about the Good Samaritan, you'd have no leg to stand on and you know it. But that would be an honest discussion, wouldn't it? No place for that, right?

You'd have a problem with Ezekiel, wouldn't you?!

But you're trolling again I see.

Again I notice you won't respond to actual discussion about the context of the book of Hebrews. So, kindly leave the chat if you're only here to troll. Please stop ruining threads I start again with trolling intent to ruin them.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

yes, my apologies, no sense doing this in stereo. you are evil, but you don't mean to be.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Keep on judging. lol Ironic, isn't it? Can't talk bible, and you say this.

Okaaaay.

I hope that satisfies your urge to insult me. See ya!

:thumbsup

Re: Book of hebrews
 

:lol just so you know you aren't getting away with anything, no insult intended.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Could not go without saying that, though, could you?

Can't just leave it and say goodbye, can you?

Again, no one lowered me in mud than you and others witnessed it here. Let's not pretend.

I keep pointing to the word and you keep pointing at me. Seriously?

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Shazeep, let's talk Hebrews! Stop making this about me. HEBREWS!

Please. Don't ruin another thread!

Re: Book of hebrews
 

Seriously. Prolly i am saving you from getting killed, and you might thank me someday. Since you asked.

Re: Book of hebrews
 

You think a muslim will kill me? Is there a contract on me or something?

When I talk with muslims when I meet them it's like the chat I pasted here from my talk with the one who said I was lost. But you don't believe what I say.

Deal with Hebrews. For goodness' sake.

Wow.

lol

Re: Book of hebrews
 

maybe, i don't know, but 'killed' was a bad choice of words, if you are already dead. Save your soul, i meant, but since you fear death i put it that way unconsciously.