McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamation
 

Pray for the church in McMinnville Oregon.


http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...ccused_in.html

Pastors have to be very careful what they say in front of the congregation these days. The days of publicly admonishing someone are in the past.

IMO, Pastors and churches should be protected from lawsuits like this.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I think the bigger issue is the Pastor & his son's violation of child labor laws in their business. Shows a lack of ethics IMO

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

The two problems in this situation in my opinion are;
1. The lack of ethics. Cheating children out of wages. Pay a man worthy of his hire. So this also leads into a business not paying the taxes both federal and state as required. ( Ie employees with holdings and social security tax), also workmans comp. insurance. So this is greed plane and simple.

2. The brother wasn't admonished; all of his and his wife's personal counseling information was put out for all to hear. When you admonish you do it with love. When you are led by he flesh and the devil you want to hurt personally, and socially. Also, with a spirit of humility you give a chance for the brother and wife to come back if asked. As for law suits being brought; not a single person reading this would not sue if your Dr. of Psych. stood up in front of all your friends and said you had some STD or mental problem. So don't justify any pastor blasting someone for doing the right thing.

If this churches pastors had done nothing wrong then all is good. But they where using children to profit. Can you justify that? Or is it because it is this group of preachers who hold themselves above a lot of great men Of God because of standards? This whole sad affair will bring this church down. It used to be different but something has changed.
Oh and what about praying for the brother that got kicked out? Or do we not care about him and his wife?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I have no idea who either of you two new guys are... and I don't intend to defend either party.
That being said both families/men should be ashamed of their conduct.

Firstly, the pastor should not have used his position in a capacity that could earn him money for a business at the expense of anyone, especially children. He was completely wrong in doing so. That's not to say teenagers should not do things for the church but not in a labor-capacity. If anything, something small and only in a service to the church directly.

I have no idea all of the events that transpired, but when he did that surely they went to him first to hopefully correct the error. If he refused or was unwilling to hear his brother then he should have gotten 2 or 3 others as laid out in the bible for correction. If he further will not hear get a Presbyter involved. (I don't know the setup in Oregon clearly)

Secondly, the pastor should not have called the man out in front of everyone. This is just further wrongs committed. There are things that it really is not the business of the whole congregation and both parties should try to keep their heads and not go tale bearing to everyone. Things should be handled with as few people as possible unless some people are seeking guidance on how to handle a situation.

Thirdly, the man should not have sued the pastor. I am not saying the pastor did correctly. I am saying inside the faith a man should not go about suing another man inside the same faith especially.... it makes all involved look even worse.... it causes further damage to relationships.... and it hurts the faith itself... more than likely this will only cause those outside the church who desire to do damage to the church to feel justified in doing something politically minded that will damage us all.

I am in no way saying that the pastor should not be censured... but I feel it should be done in a better manner.

Regardless of compensation being made or not FORGIVENESS is necessary from both parties. Especially at this point. We HAVE to forgive one another. We cannot be the example to the world we are supposed to be if we do not from our hearts forgive one another our trespasses. And I'm not talking about wishy washy feel good forgiveness. I mean the forgiveness that is based in God's unfailing, unending love. Forgiveness in the same manner that God has forgiven us. Love and compassion is the ONLY thing that will reconcile this situation. No amount of money in judgement or censure will repair this relationship. Only forgiveness in love will.

Forgiveness means laying down our desire for vengeance or recompense. It means laying aside our own feelings of betrayal. It also means apologizing (in this case publicly). It is not about who is right and who is wrong.... true love and forgiveness is not caring about that especially considering both parties have done some wrong. It is about humbling ourselves and desiring reconciliation with our brother...

Pride and Greed have clearly come into this situation. As well as a wounded heart.

I will pray God's mercy for all involved and that he would move in the hearts of everyone to be compassionate to one another.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Your post is written as though you either in this church or know the individuals involved. I don't know the church or parties involved. I've read a few news articles that basically had the same information, which gives very little detail. I also read through the comments to the articles and there are accusations made against both sides from people claiming knowledge of the situation.

I will restate what I said earlier: I believe churches and Pastors should be covered from this kind of lawsuit. Secular courts have no business ruling on internal church discipline. There's actually a legal precedent for this, where a court refused a lawsuit from a former UPC minister whose licensed was revoked and he was removed from the organization. The man turned around and sued the UPC, but the courts sided with the UPC and wrote that it was improper for the court to rule on how a church should handle internal discipline. The First Amendment is quite clear that the government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion. This includes church procedures and internal discipline.

IMO, because defamation cases are very hard to prove; because this man has to meet a high burden of proof; and because courts are usually hesitant to become involved with internal church discipline, I would guess the suit will be dismissed or the man will lose in court.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I claim no knowledge of the situation. But these sort of things happen in churches and will continually happen in churches as they are occupied by people.

It's possible the pastor did not do what the other gentleman accused him of doing. Unlikely as the pastor was forced to pay the students. I think the defamation suit will probably get thrown out.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

From what I read in the comments, the pay issue and the defamation suit are about two different things.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Per the article the pay issue was already decided against the pastor. Maybe the parishioner is grasping at straws because of the pastor's offence. It is also possible the pastor did do wrong. I am saying who is right and who is wrong is not nearly as important to the spiritual self as the necessity of forgiveness. Lest they both be delivered to the Supreme judge.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

In truth I have never heard of folks charging to do work around the church?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Below is a quote from the comments section of the paper that reported this. Sheds some light on the pay issue. Looks like they were trying to be helpful to the families involved by making a way for them to attend school.

http://newsregister.com/article?arti...90887--17779--

"orange98
Yourright: I really hate internet arguments that resort to name-calling and insults. Lets please keep this civil.

I don't know everything, just what I've heard from the people involved. I don't need to testify in court, the court has already decided on the case and that person is apparently being dealt with. That young person was not allowed to go to school with anybody he hurt & was expelled for his actions.

As for the pastors, nobody is perfect and everybody makes mistakes. From what I understand, Matthew Davies was paying for most of those young men to go to school. Thus, during the summer months and on evenings after school thy worked with him. According to law, they should've been paid and that has been settled. One thing should be noted: every one of those workers had parents who wanted their children to be doing that and knew they weren't going to be paid.

Maybe we can all pray Gods will be done instead of shooting from the hip and getting all bent up about it? After all, God said that Vengeance is mine. God will take care of those who wrongs anybody, so if indeed the pastors deserve punishment, they will get it.
06:29 pm - Tue, May 5 2015"

Most of the comments are the typical rush to judgement types. The last comment is balanced and by someone who should know.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Bro Epley, growing up in the church my father pastored, people volunteered to work around the church. They considered it an honor to do so. These days, everyone demands some kind of payment to do any kind of work in the church.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I would never want to ask someone to do something at the church without a willingness to pay them although most don't ever want to receive anything. Depends on the circumstances with these young people, but there is probably a lot more to the story.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Everybody helps out around the church...I would say this guy has something against the pastor...

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

If you read article it was for his business. Not the church. As far as work around the church is concerned that should be part of your offering toward the Lord in the Lords work. That's why it was a violation. Seems to me people think it is ok to tell personal info and retaliat as long as it's the man of God. So you should not take a brother to law? That is what the word says. So there's no reason ever to inform lawn enforcement of a crime that was committed as long as it's committed by a Christian in the church?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Same faith? He was excommunicated and then slandered. You know how that stuff works? Pastor and saints tell their friends and so on and so on so that he can never attend another Oneness church because of the lies told...I say sue the man, because surely he is either not praying or not listening to God.

Who knows...maybe this is how God chose to deal with him

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Right...AFTER he reported the Pastor....the pastor slandered him from the pulpit...is the accusation

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

What do comments know? If that were true he would not have to compensate them...just like most churches do when they have kids do fundraising for camp...their payment for camp IS their compensation

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

As per the article....they were not merely working around the church. They were doing work FOR "The church landscaping business"

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Let's get facts right. It was the "pastor and son's" personal, for profit business. They used the children of non attending parents(mostly) as laborors to profit a "private" business. So pastor and son are unethical and use the "teach work ethic" excuse to profit. The best work ethic I get is every 2 weeks, my paycheck comes and if I mess up it stops. That's teaching work ethic. How funny the "pastor" can preach but doesn't practice. Pay a man worthy of his hire. That is scripture. So is it ok for a "pastor" to take advantage of their possition of influence to make a profit? This man has suffered a lot because of the pulpit pounding he got. Friends are now shunners, fellowship now gone. Where is the love of Christ in that? Can a man never be reinstated to the fellowship of God? Where in the Word does it say cast out and make no room for reconciliation? Even the man that was immoral in Cor. was able to come back. Not this brother tho. And for all of you wondering; I was there and I Got the B.O.L.I. Investigation and findings. Let's just say the "pastors" were a little forgetful on how much the kids worked. In my opinion they bold face lied on an investigation. I got proof and if anyone wants it just ask I am not ashamed of truth. I know these "pastors" are well known but that does not make exposing personal info right. I was there. So until they admit to BOLI the true hours those children worked how can they be saved? What a shame all of this is. To bad Christ has to endure all of this. I know preachers like to use backsliders and disfellowship meetings to set examples but to use a person by name and tell all his and her counseling session info is unethical and Christ will not deal kindly.
In the love of Jesus Christ and his absolute truth I pray for all. Maybe God uses this time to teach instead of judge. Remember, a man that restores a brother covers a multitude of sin.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I never heard of them. I have a question. Do you have any comment that they were working to pay for school tuition?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I thought being part of a traditional church structure and denomination provided accountability so these types of events did not occur? Oh, wait...Is the pastor part of a denomination or wider fellowship?

If so, where's the accountability?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

If this was a business, and there was no arrangement as was claimed between the Pastor and the parents (kids working to pay their tuition), then I agree it's unethical and wrong of the Pastor to use free labor.

Of course, any debate is a moot point, since the courts have already made the Pastor pay these kids.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Holy Ghost HH -- there are three sides to this story, the accusers side, the Pastor's side and the truth. I don't know which side you fall on, though your posts seem sympathetic to the accuser and not towards the Pastor. The comments attached to the articles were interesting. One comment stated they were there during the service in question and the Pastor did not do what the accuser claims he did. Another comment questioned how the accuser could claim the Pastor revealed private info, when the accuser was telling other people in the church the same information the Pastor gave that night. One of the comments which caught my eye was a claim that the accuser has previously filed lawsuits against 2 or 3 others, which (IF true) makes it appear the accuser has made a business of filing lawsuits against people.

Obviously I have no way of knowing whether any of the claims above are true or not, I just found them interesting. I have no dog in the fight, save that I don't believe a secular court should involve itself with internal church business.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

We are of a similar opinion.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

You're assuming the accusations against the Pastor are true. How do you know he slandered him; Because the accuser or his friend says the Pastor did? Again there are three sides to every story, each opposing side and the truth. No evidence has been presented, so how do you already know the Pastor slandered the accuser?

It could be there was good reason the accuser was excommunicated from the church.

My father had to excommunicate someone from the church he pastored. It was a man and his family who moved from out of state. They had recently resigned from pastoring a church a few states away and was looking to just be part of a church body. A few months after they moved, people started coming to my father, saying the man was trying to counsel people against my father. The man would take any disagreement he had with my father's message or direction for the church and would tell people how he'd do it if he were the pastor.

My father was disappointed to do it, but he sent him out. Then he told the people if anyone wanted to join the man, they were free to leave; however, if they chose to stay, there was to be no contact or fellowship with the man and his family.

IMO, a believer should never sue another believer. For any reason. The bible is quite clear against it.

Not only did Paul speak against it, but Jesus warned against this kind of action. In the parable of the man who was forgiven a debt he never could have repaid, this man turns around and throws a man who owed him barely anything into prison. When the lord heard about this, he brought back the man and delivered him to the tormentors 'til he could pay the debt in full. Jesus closed the parable with a warning: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

IIRC, I read the accuser has been in the church for a while. God forgave the accuser all his sins and trespasses. But should he now take the role of the unforgiving servant and sue another believer -- Jesus said, not me, that all his sins and trespasses will be put back on him.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Yes I am, for the sake of argument. If that happened to me, I'd sue.

So if this person is being honest and these things happened...I say go ahead and sue

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Are you seriously offering a story about throwing someone out and prohibiting anyone from contact with him as a lesson about love and forgiveness?

Isn't treatment of someone like that exactly what Jesus warned against? I know you probably did not pick up logic from those PACEs I am guessing you were likely educated from but good grief.

smh

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Love and forgiveness does not mean sin is to be tolerated. Jesus Himself gave instructions for excommunication.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

So, it is wrong to sue a brother for any reason? That is the exact thought the Catholic Church had about its child "indiscretion" didn't it? The church became independent from the UPCI. UPCI is in a backslider state if you hear the undertone of the reason this church left it. The 2 sides and the truth is a good one. Facts Are part of truth. This story has garnered a lot of attention in McMinnville and they will run a follow up I would assume. I am on the side of right not wrong. I would choose the facts over opinion that is why I read the file. Never take a mans word as fact without validation on something as important as this. Doing the right thing is no reason for disfellowship.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

As exampled by His treatment of Judas and dinners / fellowship with sinners? "To Be Like Jesus...." You're probably right.

Please share that teaching. I must have skipped sunday school that day lol

Hope you are not referring to dusting feet and leaving town after rejected ministry. Doing nothing to someone and walking away is not quite the same thing as assassinating them after you kick them (except in PACEs)

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

There is a biblical example for how to deal with conflict between believers. This is what my father followed. If you have issue, it is with God's Word. My father gave him opportunity, but the man did not listen or stop what he was doing.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

As a muslim, you have no role in this debate. You cannot grasp the issue, as shown by your twisting of Jesus' treatment of Judas and His dining with sinners.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Wasnt taking to you in that post. I was talking to you in the earlier post that seems to be such an insurmountable obstacle you cant seem to answer it.

I can grasp this issue quite well and twisted nothing. Go get your daddy, sign him up, and I'll tell him the same thing.

<seems i tossed a little salt and it landed on a cut> nailed you again didnt I. First the passport, now the PACEs. I have you neatly categorized and it aint flattering doc.

As to your example, it is required by all of us to follow the law. When the law is broken then we (all) are accountable under it. Neither ministers nor churches are above the law and there are more examples of this in the bible (many) of this then there are of covering it up (none).

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Read the Bible and tell me if it's okay to sue a brother. It's not a rule the UPC made, or one that I made. Both Jesus and Paul taught and wrote against it. You say you're on the side of right, not wrong. If this is true, then you cannot possibly support this lawsuit against another believer.

Even if the Bible wasn't clearly against it, I would still say a believer shouldn't take another believer to court over internal church discipline as a matter of allowing a precedent to be set. Again, I doubt the court will rule in this man's favor because of prior court rulings refusing to get involved with internal church disputes. But should a court choose to ignore that, and get involved in an internal dispute, it will be a bad precedent.

I do agree one should value facts and evidence over one's word.

As a man who grew up in the home of a Pastor, and who has served under several Pastors, I will say the decision to disfellowship or excommunicate someone is not taken lightly. Especially if the person has been in the church for a while and has friends and roots in the church. In the cases I've known, the Biblical pattern for disputes was followed, and only after the person refused was he/she removed from fellowship. Removal was always a last resort, and only because of continued discord.

Again, there has been no proof or evidence provided against the Pastor which would show he was wrong for kicking the man out of the church.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I did answer it. You either missed it or ignored it.

No, you don't understand the issue. You do twist scripture and what Jesus taught, which has been proven time and again by others in this forum.

:lol No cut for any figurative salt to land in. Not sure what you're trying to say about the passport or "PACE's," nor do you have me "categorized." What's not flattering are the dishonest posts you've made, the lies you've told on here against ministers, and your inability to understand or follow Biblical teaching.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

What do you mean by pace's? Are you speaking of christian families who are homeschooling? I hope you are not slurring people's education.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

XDunno you seemed a little upset.

I have spoken no lies against your ministers and their systematic cover ups of the spiritual abuse that they routinely dole out. There are many court cases, ruled on and in the record, on issues just like this one. This one is just added to the list.

All victimizers have the same opinion that you have, the courts have no place interfering with their abuse. Which just puts you in a long, boring line. So give it up. When you break the law then you answer to it. Let the courts settle it and if this man is innocent then so be it.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Homeschooler child abuse cases was another thread. They also feel, while clutching their "to bring up a child" book, that the courts have no business interfering with their beliefs.

No, not upset. I just don't believe, being a muslim, you have a role in this debate.

Not talking about this. I'm talking about the lies against Stoneking and Wilson.

There are laws which cover the sexual abuse you're talking about. I'm not against that. You're trying to change the issue.

No law was broken here, so your example doesn't apply. Nice try though.

There's a huge difference between a minister breaking the law and committing sexual abuse, and the courts taking the issue, and some angry, bitter ex parishioner suing the Pastor because he was excommunicated.

Unlike muslim sharia law, US law offers the First Amendment covering of freedom of religion and its free exercise.