Why I Am A Futurist
 

Its simple.

The events of Matthew 24 and also the book of Revelation are not fulfilled. Jesus Christ has not come back to gather (rapture) the saints.

Yes he has come in the Holy Spirit into the physical bodies of believers but no he has not come and taken over the kingdoms of this world.

Matt 24:15-22

To limit this to ONLY the area of Jerusalem in 70ad one could certainly NOT believe that was the GREATEST TIME OF TRIBULATION that ever hit the world. Far more Jews were murdered by Adolf Hitler from 1939-1945. Not to mention that 10 times more Russians than Jews died about that same time also through the reign of Hitler. Not to mention that besides this millions of others were killed in the 1939-1945 time of tribulation.

Neither has this ever happened before.

Matt 24:29-31

Obviously this would be the greatest and most important event in all history. Yet nothing in history reports all the disciples of YESHUA suddenly vanished from the Earth.

But IF they did? What relevance would the Bible have for us today? Jesus already came and took away the people the Apostles wrote letters to and ministered to so WHO ARE WE?

We are not mentioned in scripture. It was not written TO US PERIOD according to such a belief.

This preterist doctrine is THE MOST EXTREME form of dispensationalism I ever encountered. It says Jesus teachings and promises were fulfilled to persons in the first century. He came and got his people and they went to Heaven.

So all the while they claim to attack "dispensationalism" THEY created their own form of it that robs every believer for over 2000 years of their BLESSED HOPE in the coming of YESHUA CHRIST.

So thats why I am what they would call a "futurist". I take the promised coming of Jesus to raise the dead and translate the living as my blessed hope and the full realization of my faith.

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

What I look for as a GLORIOUS APPEARING they say slipped by 2000 years ago!

Does not quite sound like THIS does it?

2 Thess 2:7-10

Awesome and majestic! The greatest event in history of mankind! And yet it came and went. Nobody ever knew about it! All the unbelievers were punished with everlasting destruction! WOW!

So since all this happened in 70 AD WHO ARE WE? It seems as if all of us Christians since 70 ad got LEFT BEHIND!

Apostolic Friends let us return to our blessed hope.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Using that reasoning, then this has not come to pass yet either.

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Very good point sir. :tiphat

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Mike, an extinguished sun, and stars falling towards earth? Are these literal stars and a sun going out? Does the rapture take place right when these things happen? Then these saints which have been taken up in a rapture are returned when the New Jerusalem comes down and touches down on a refurbished planet?

Please, I'm eager to hear your thoughts, or at least read them.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Mike, quick question?

Who is Mystery Babylon?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Mike,

Has Yeshua already come and taken the saints to Heaven or is that a future event?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Dom,

Im eager to hear your thoughts on what I posted. WHO ARE WE?

Since the Bible was not written to us WHAT DO WE KNOW OF ANYTHING ABOUT GOD?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

It is future. But you spoke about the sun and moon turning dark in Matt 24, which addresses beliefs I hold. That has happened I believe. Part of what you wrote conflicts with my beliefs. I addressed that part. But I agree the resurrection to glory is future.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

So you and I are both futurists! Now there are things I may agree or disagree with as to other futurists nonetheless we are "futurists".

So why is it you venomize futurists who you agree with and unite with Preterists who do not believe in the future resurrection?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Do you believe what I believe is the truth or that it is false?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Showing error is not venomizing. But partial preterist is partial futurist. Not full futurist.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Partial Preterism believes Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were completed in the First Century A.D. which would be drastically different then what Michael the Disciple currently believes. I think Michael the Disciple sees a rapture in Matthew 24.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

This is just something to consider when trying to quantify one holocaust with another.

According to best estimates, there were 97,000 prisoners and 1,100,000 who perished. He also cites a widespread slaughter by the local populations elsewhere where the Jews were disliked including Damascus 18,000 plus their families and Egypt 60,000 plus families.

Best estimate of population of the entire planet in AD100 is <200,000. So it would be equivalent to @35,000,000 Jews being killed today. That is how large a number of people was slaughtered in ad70.

Neither is acceptable, but just to put a perspective on the magnitude of that massacre back then. Not to mention why that happened to them in that generation.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Bowas, that is pretty good. :tiphat

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

There are no rapture or resurrection from the dead mentioned verses in those Chapters.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

I would really like to know about the Exclusive Covenant which will be offered to the Jews in the Millennium. How is it that Romans 11:27 is only speaking about some future covenant which will only be offered to Jews in the Millennium?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Bowas, Paul was speaking of a rapture in Thess., reiterating the words of Jesus in Mat. 24.....


Lets see if Paul in 1 Thes. 4 and 5 was quoting Jesus about Matt. 24.....



Paul quotes what Jesus already spoke of prior(notice "WE SAY" as in the Apostles say, not just Paul)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.( this was spoken as the common knowledge of the Apostles)


The catching away parallel...

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



The thief parallel.....



42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.




The drunken servant parallel....

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Notice the SEQUENCIAL parallels of the 2 passages.

Accidental?

I dont think so.

I think Paul was reiterating Matt. 24 in this passage on Thess.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Welcome back.

Now answer my questions

I would really like to know about the Exclusive Covenant which will be offered to the Jews in the Millennium. How is it that Romans 11:27 is only speaking about some future covenant which will only be offered to Jews in the Millennium? Where did Jesus and the apostles teach this future Exclusive New Covenant which would only be for the Jews, and for when they would be living in the Millennium?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Well I don't know how to tell you this, but I kind of have bad news for you. If you believe Thes and Matt is referring to the same event, you are a full-preterist, since Matt 24's subject is temple destruction which occurred in AD70, so if you claim Matt 24 and Thes. are the same event YOU ARE A FULL PRETERIST! LOL

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

I don't know of any Full Preterists who believe in an Exclusive New Covenant which will be offered to Jews in the Millennium?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

if you want, I can post the entire passage. But do note, the entire passage is speaking to the CHURCH vs the "blinded" JEWS. It shows the 2 distinct groups, then singles out the Jews ONLY for the following passage....

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.


This passages is in no way about the church, which is grafted in of both Jew and Gentile, but about the BLINDED Jews only!

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

LOL...did you miss me?

Took a few days off to let others join in!

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

That's right. Well, maybe he's not a total full preterist, but he see's Matt 24 and Thes. as the same event, so he's on that track I think, as I understand it.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Miss you? Who are you? lol

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Im a "full futurist"...LOL

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

But those Judeans made up the domestic plant, and the blinded Judeans could come into the same plant by belief, and if the wild branch boasted that Judeans were broken off so they could be grafted into the domestic tree they would be broken off. Where is the Exclusive New Covenant which takes away sins in a future Millennium? Didn't the Judeans who were already part of the Domestic plant, and those who were broken off in unbelief able to have their sins removed? Why a future Exclusive New Covenant which is ONLY offered to Jews in the Millennium? Can't Jews now have their sins remitted the same as we in the ????OLD NEW COVENANT to GENTILES AND JEWS????

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Steve Winter?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

HAHA!!!

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Strange isnt it that Dom never touched on what I said at all. No more free ride. The Prets jump into every thread......never missing a chance to push their faith destroying doctrine, and will follow people all around the forum demanding we answer their questions.

Again I ask WHO ARE WE? The New Testament according to them is only for you if it addressed specifically to you. Since those to whom it was addressed went to Heaven in 70ad WHO ARE WE?

What makes Prets think they know anything about God or his will? What are they basing it upon since NONE of the New Testament was ever written to them?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Ladies and Gentlemen, and children of all ages, Mr Mike, was invited to come to the Eschatology section (I even made him his own thread) entitled Two Witness Prophets? The Man Child Ministry? Yet, he declined. But he did answer my question concerning what he thought about what I believe concerning eschatology. He believes that it is faith destroying? Yes, that's what he said, faith destroying. I guess he is sticking up for an individual who refused to answer my posts on his belief that God has another covenant other then the one we are in currently. This covenant is exclusive to ONLY Jews in the Millennium? This was interesting, and so I asked the poster numerous times to answer, and explain. Only to be told to pray about it.

I guess Micheal the Disciple also adheres to an Exclusive New Covenant which leap frogs over the New Testament of Jesus Christ to be ONLY offered to the Jews in the Millennium

Were you angry as you typed the above Mike? Because I haven't a clue as to what you are saying when you post that people who believe in a fulfilled eschatology don't believe any of the New Testament was written to them?

Well, alas, since that is what you believe then I'm at a loss, because after all you claim I'm the midget, and you are the all seeing wise giant.

So, here is my chance to be led to deeper truths, so Mike be the sighted guide for me. Teach, you be the teacher, and I will be the student.

Spoon feed me.

So please answer my questions I'm eager to learn. You see you couldn't be eager to know anything from me, because I am in a faith destroying belief.

Your words, so please lead on.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

My question to Prets has been the same since post 1. The entire point you attempt to make is that since Yeshua spoke the things in Matt 24 it ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE PEOPLE.

It has no meaning for us 20 centuries later because it only refers to that particular group.

That is your foundation.

So my point is how is any of the scriptures applicable to us? Our name is found NOWHERE in the New Testament. The Lord and Savior came (according to you) in 70ad. He took his people to Heaven.

The gospels, the book of Acts, and especially the book of Revelation were all written to THOSE PEOPLE. The teachings that prepared THOSE RAPTURED PEOPLE for their trip to Heaven were not given to anyone except those who were preparing for such.

So the question WHO ARE WE is logical to ask. The people to whom the New Testament was written to were ANOTHER PEOPLE. Not us as your doctrine proclaims.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Here is a good example as to what Im saying.

Let us remember.......who is being addressed?

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. Acts 2:5-13

People back in THE FIRST CENTURY of differing nationalities heard the preaching of the Apostles to themselves. When the Apostles preached the message WE WERE NOT THERE. Peter told THEM the following.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

So the Apostles told the men of THAT UNTOWARD GENERATION to repent be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. Then he said this promise was FOR THEM and their children and people who were far off.

So there (according to Pret logic) we can safely contend that what Peter told the crowd that day was ONLY FOR THEM AND THEIR CHILDREN! It was only for THAT UNTOWARD GENERATION.

So as Yeshua said in Matt 24 THIS generation shall not pass the Prets claim it is limited to the generation he spoke it to. They must now accept that the preaching of Acts chapter two as being limited to THAT UNTOWARD GENERATION.

See how this works Dom? So you really have no authority to tell anyone to do what Peter told THAT GENERATION AND THEIR CHILDREN to do.

So since the people that followed Peters instructions went to Heaven in 70 ad WHO ARE WE? Has Yeshua's teachings of salvation any meaning to us?

For us to try to claim Acts 2 as being for us 20 centuries after the coming of Yeshua taking his people back to Heaven would be like someone in the first century Apostolic Church looking at Moses teachings and telling everyone they must follow his teachings for salvation. It would not have applied at that time.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

So we are continually mocked who believe there is a future fulfillment to prophecy. We are ridiculed as "dispensationalists".

And yet what we have discovered is that the Prets THEMSELVES are the most extreme dispensationlists.

They have created a very limited and short dispensation from Pentecost to 70ad in which the rapture took place.

Next they have a 20 centuries dispensation that they have not explained as to WHO IS IN IT. 20 centuries have passed by of people who were NOT involved in the rapture, neither were they ever promised such a thing.

So friends WHO ARE WE ANYHOW? What relevance does the preaching of Christ have to us? Was there plan B given somewhere to teach those of us who were never promised a rapture to Heaven?

Or are we simply doomed because we are not even mentioned in the Bible? WHO ARE WE?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Won't happen.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

2 Timothy 2:16-18

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Dom,

Since you teach what they taught......the resurrection is past already, you are obviously teaching false.

As I said earlier it is a faith destroying doctrine.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

No, it doesn't look like it.

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Dom,

You are currently teaching your doctrine in all threads about the end time. I started this one as a witness to why one would believe in a future coming of Christ and resurrection from the dead.

Instead of demanding that I answer your questions why dont you answer mine?

I really just have one main question for you.

If the resurrection happened in 70ad WHO ARE WE?

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Since I teach what they taught? No I don't. I guess you don't know what I teach. But will call it faith destroying anyway. Well, like I said you are the sighted giant of all you survey. I am only a wee midget and simply waiting for you to teach me. Since I learn best when I ask questions of a Master (like yourself) I will be the weed hopper you can spoon feed.

Now please answer....


Mike ever since Brother Jim Yohe asked me to join his forum way back in the Faith Child days, we who believe in a Fulfilled Eschatology have answered questions. If you look at the Eschatology section you will see that it is thick with Preterism. Do you know why? Because it is the Preterists who answer questions. Elder M Blume has done a splendid job posting on forums, making videos and writing books. Which are all available to be accessed.

Yet, it is like trying to nail jello to the wall having you answer my questions. But you are the sighted one, Mike, you are the one who is supposed to have the ultimate truth. Want to know something, after all these years knowing you, all I know is that you are Post Trib. I don't even know what kind of Post Trib, I don't know if you believe that the Church and physical Israel are different, or if the Church is the True Israel. Does the Church and Physical Israel have different plans from God? Do you believe in an Exclusive New Covenant to be offered to Jews living in the Millennium? Or do you even believe in a physical Millennium sometime in the far far away future?

Mike want to know why I don't know? Because when YOU are asked, YOU won't answer.

So, please if I am so shot out, be a good chap, and convert me. :)

Re: Why I Am A Futurist
 

Good question Michael, maybe the preterist thinks we are the afterbirth of Pentecost...LOL