Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Good Apostolic preaching. NOT.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Apostolic Identity teaching needs to be set aside and some good old fashioned manners, compassion and truth telling should be taught. Does anyone really believe that anyone preaches for 20 minutes with someone wrapping the arm around their ankles and snot dripping off their shoes?

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

If what he says is true it's a sad day for LT.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

2 hit pieces on Hoffman...what's your beef with him, "Charity?"

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

I didn't even comprehend what he was saying in the Kilgore video, so I guess I'm missing the scandal.

As for the other video--definitely in terrible taste. :foottap I can't imagine my pastor EVER making a reference like that. There were better ways to make sure his audience knew he was talking about someone from Africa.

I don't know enough about Harold Hoffman to connect his comment to racism rather than really poor taste. I hope it's the latter instead of the former, but who knows? I've heard him teach at Oklahoma family camp and I enjoyed his sessions.

People do make mistakes and insert their feet in their mouths occasionally. Well, except for the people who like to post videos of preachers like these--they've never made poor judgment calls or said something they later wished they hadn't. :rolleyes2

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

And there it is...your patented defense of the indefensible.

In the video posted Harold Hoffman:

• Divulged private information about a strained relationship between a father and son.
• Stated that the son is "an embarrassment" presumably to his recently deceased father and, more importantly, the UPC, which he recently left..
• Stated that he didn't care that his comments were on tape.

Now, all of this was prefaced with the remark that Life Tabernacle is "gone" and that it was the largest foreign missions donor before departing.

The real issue here is anger. Anger because the money flow into FM slowed.

So the man impugned Jim Kilgore's character and insulted the relationship between he and his father, all in front of a world wide audience only 3 months after the Elder's death.

At the very least he acted in poor taste. There was no love in that message.

But you will give him a free pass because doing so is necessary to your agenda.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

My post wasn't much of a defense. LOL!!! I barely gave an opinion one way or the other, and I confessed I couldn't understand what he was saying about Bro. Kilgore. (ergo, I can't have an opinion about that)

Isn't that precisely what I said? :blink (referring to the OTHER video...not the Kilgore video)

Nope, I didn't give him a free pass, and I don't know what "agenda" you're talking about, unless you're referring to the fact that I withhold my full opinion until I have the facts. I DO think it's a contradiction to cry foul because Bro. Kilgore was embarrassed in some way and then make sure to share that video far and wide. The person who is spreading the video is perfectly FINE with shaming Bro. Kilgore publicly--since it suits THEIR agenda.

Nice try, though.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

You could have started your post like this:

"Since you couldn't understand the first video, here's a synopsis of what he said:"See how much more civil your post is without the completely unnecessary first and last comments? Holding my opinions until I know at least as much as can be known is called prudence; not an agenda.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Except you do have an agenda, and it colors everything you post.

You jump in at every chance to marginalize those who post threads like these.

The video is not hard to understand.

The man expressed sorrow for the loss of money but none for the death of James Kilgore or his son's exit.

Words matter. He spoke what was in his heart.

Stop defending him.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Looks like nepotism does have a downside. Sad

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

That "shuddery" "weepy" preacher voice that he uses in the video gives me the creeps. Especially when you really listen to what he's saying and are not moved by the emotion of the room or manipulation of "preacher stage voice/acting". Why can't preachers just talk in their normal voices? It's one thing to get excited and passionate when you're talking, but would you ever have a normal conversation (even one where you're getting excited and making an important point) and use that "oooooooohhhhh" moaning type voice? Why do preachers feel the need to put on this show?

Off topic, I know. Just an observation.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

I pray that God grant Rev. Harold Hoffman wisdom and grace.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Charnock. :) I couldn't HEAR everything he was saying in the first video, therefore I didn't UNDERSTAND the video. I have no reason to lie about that, but I guess if you want to call me a liar, feel free. :rolleyes2

I guess you jumped on MY post because I asked you for an example of my "defense of the indefensible" the other day (which you didn't provide from past posts), and I guess you thought you had a wonderful illustration with post #6. Unfortunately, you don't. Anyone can read my first post on this thread and see that I didn't defend Harold Hoffman; I did reserve my full opinion, which is my prerogative and only speaks to the fact that I don't like to speak first and think later. In fact, what I DID say was pretty much the same thing you said ("At the very least he acted in poor taste."), so does that mean YOU were defending Harold Hoffman, e.g., "defending the indefensible?" :coffee2

To clarify, here is where I commented on the second video and reserved my comments on the first one, which wasn't clear to me:

Please point out where I defended his comments.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

It's very easily seen in the quote. :heeheehee

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Please quote those bits, then, and explain to me how they're defending his COMMENTS. I didn't defend his COMMENTS. I only mentioned that I had heard him at family camp and enjoyed his sessions, and that I HOPED his comments weren't inspired by racism, which seems worse than "poor taste" to me.

Let's review: I didn't comment on video 1 because I didn't get it. I did comment on video 2 and said that his comments were in terrible taste and that I hoped they weren't rooted in racism.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

LOL- Brat, it was a joke. Read the small print in your quote from my post. :)

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

MissBratt was not defending this guy. And I too could not even hear what was said, but if what they are saying is true then this guy is way out of order.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

This is a defense.

It's also an attack on the person who posted this thread, accompanied by your patented and condescending eye roll.

HH's comments were not "mistakes" in the sense that he accidentally, and without thought, slipped.

He stated that he knew those comments were being taped, and didn't care.

That's something far more insidious than "poor taste."

This is what you do, Bratti. You immediately attack the poster rather than the content and in such a way as to make yourself appear above the conversation.

It's an old schtick.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

She did not immediately attack the poster. She gave her thoughts on the two videos first. What she afterward shared about the poster was very mild, more like sarcasm to me. On the other hand, you say negative things about Brat instead of sticking to the content of the video.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

I don't believe MissBrattified has an agenda. I do believe "Charity" has one though, as "her" 21 posts are drive-bys in which "she" posts something sensational or "scandalous" and then most of the time leaves everyone else to discuss it. "Charity" is either DA or someone connected to him.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

The choice of the name "Charity" is ironic.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

So, we can't get past the sacred cow, huh?

Most of the posts in this thread are whines/attacks toward "Charity."

But none of you have discussed the content of the video posted.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Re: HH "attack" on Jim Kilgore, I wasn't able to hear most of the video.

Re: HH "joke" about Niger (the country in Africa), it was in poor taste and I don't agree with it. It's below the office of a minister to resort to things like this.

There's my :2cents about the videos. Does that make you feel better?

BTW, since "Charity" is willing to post these drive-by threads, "Charity" should understand and accept the criticism which comes with it.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

No one makes you read, or comment, right?

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Right back atcha. :thumbsup

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

She wasn't defending the statement. She simply pointed out the truth about us all making mistakes.

She did not justify him doing it nor cleared the man of wrong doing

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

I hadn't noticed that.

In fact I HAVE noticed that many of us HAVE discussed the content of the video. Odd..in fact you quoted MrsBratt commenting on it several times now

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

What sacred cow?

What Hoffman said in this video is similar to what many other preachers do when they call out people from the pulpit. I don't like it.

Have you ever said something like that when preaching? maybe you left out the names but some folks are able to connect the dots.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

It wasn't "a mistake."

It was planned, and he made sure everyone watching/listening clearly understood that he meant what he said.

"It was a mistake" are your words, not his.

You're defending his words, trying to soften the blunt damage.

You're like the husband who finds his wife in bed with another man and believes her when she says it's "not what he thinks."

HH expressed sorrow for the loss of money and disgust with JK. He used his best sobby preacher voice to express that disgust.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

This will suffice.

Thanks. :highfive

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

This "pile on" behavior is very typical of abusive systems.

Those connected with the group pile on anyone who has the temerity to cry when kicked, beaten and bloodied.

In their minds, the victim needs to grow up, take it like a man, and stop whining.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

It wasn't a mistake, the preacher meant what he said, and he believes what he says!!

Fine, alot of folks simply believe he is wrong, and that what he said was in extremely bad taste.

I'm sure JK had a lot of misgivings about the direction of LT, however, he never rejected his son, and I don't believe for a minute he felt like was presented in this video.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Yes, her comment that she "doesn't like it" will suffice, but my comment stating that it was in "terrible taste" (re: the N word) does not suffice. I think YOUR agenda is showing. :heeheehee

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

No, it's related to the fact that I always look at both sides of an issue. Two wrongs never make a right. The response to wrong has to be done in a way that maintains integrity and stays above the fray.

It was the coffee cup that was dubbed condescending. :)

I didn't say they were accidental. Sometimes people say things on purpose that they regret later because they don't think through the consequences. The fact that he parsed it doesn't mean he didn't regret it later--but obviously that's a hypothetical and I have no way of knowing if he regrets anything.

Then why did you call it "poor taste" at the very least? Why is your summation fine but my almost exact same summation bad?

Actually, I don't. I do call a spade a spade and if you respond to wrong with wrong, I will call you out on it. You and others don't like that because you want it to be one sided. You want to rake people over the coals for their attitudes, lack of self-control, meanness, vindictiveness, etc., WHILE you are being mean, vindictive and having an attitude. I have a lot of respect for people who address issues respectfully. If I had the time (which I don't), I could go back and find multiple threads where I have participated in discussing serious issues with church leadership, organizations, etc., without attacking the poster for bringing it up. I don't have a problem with issues being raised and I don't have a problem with this thread being posted. Never have. If I did, I wouldn't participate in this forum, and I wouldn't comment on similar threads on Facebook. I'm not scared of issues.

I don't feel respect for people who address issues without integrity and self-control, e.g., I won't give your complaints any weight. If someone screams at me in anger and I scream right back, I'm just as wrong. If someone cusses me and I cuss back at them, I'm just as guilty. Etc. If you're going to call out people on their mess, you'd better be squeaky clean, or you're no better than them. IMO, the reason you feel comfortable being disrespectful and rude is because you have devalued certain groups of people (UPCers/conservative Apostolics) and given yourself permission to do so. Giving yourself permission to be ugly and rude because you think negatively about someone's values or belief system doesn't mean it's okay in God's eyes.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Utter nonsense. No one on this thread has indicated that the "victim" (Bro. Kilgore's son?) should "grow up, take it like a man...." I certainly don't feel that way about anyone offended by the N-word reference.

Are you just mad because I don't like that the videos were posted? It's the wrong way to handle offenses, and that's all there is to that. I don't care about "protecting" Bro. Hoffman or anyone else in the UPC or church world. I do care about the biblical manner of resolving offenses, and I would hope that you care about that, too. I also care about protecting the reputation of the church as a whole, and IMO, that is why scripture basically tells us not to take church issues to the secular world for judgment.

Taking a matter public is actually UNbiblical, aka, disobedient to the Word of God. Taking a matter before the "whole church" is biblical, but only after a couple of other methods are used. THAT is why I object to these expose' style videos being posted, after the manner of some news rag that's out to air everyone's dirty laundry. I AM interested in church discipline and leaders who get out of line being corrected.

So what places you or any other Christian above the biblical protocol for resolving offenses?

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

:heeheehee :thumbsup

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

The bold part is a massive leap. I re-watched the clip with the volume up full blast and still didn't make out everything. As I heard, there was one passing reference to foreign missions and that's it.

HH said Jimbo was an embarrassment, but doesn't say why. He follows that with telling the people there that they need to stop being embarrassed by "this."

Unless you've watched or heard the entire message, you can't make the claim there was no love in the message. This 80 second clip doesn't show enough to make that claim.

As far as HH faking emotion, as a couple here have claimed...how do you know? You have no idea.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

:heeheehee :thumbsup

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Um, BWAHAHA!

Your immediate and continued response has been to show way more disdain for the person who posted this thread than the racist and cruel remarks of HH.