The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I have another thread out there right now where I do have some thoughts I have been considering and I am enjoying the information that many are sharing giving me more to think about in my search for what thus sayeth the word of God.

But this subject... I'm just completely at a loss.


I can percieve that Jesus was born a little over 2000 years ago. In my mind the son has no existence prior to the conception the day God overshadowed Mary other than in the plan of God.

I have heard some put the throught forward that the son had pre-existence before the incarnation. I just cannot wrap my mind around that at all. There are things that I don't believe but I can see where they get the concept from. On this one... I cannot even understand where they can get the concept from although there are some head scratcher verses out there such as...

"The glory I had with thee before the world began" (Or something similar) etc.


So... what is everyones concept of the son prior to the incarnation?

I think I have, basically, put my thoughts out there but ask any questions you have about what I might think on the subject.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I think the Son pre-existed being human as God Himself

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This is how I see it too. This option isn't listed.

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So basically, Father and Son are synonyms for one "person"?

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Synonyms? No

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Gna comment, or just post links and youtube us to death?

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Amen

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Stated perfectly.

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i think the son preexisted as the word who was a manifestation of god. i think that explains how he came down from heaven and had glory with the father.

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Amen. I echo this statement.

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Jesus pre existed as THE WORD.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. John 1:1-3

To say Jesus existed as God before he was born is correct. But the WORD was also WITH GOD.

Jesus preexisted as BOTH the WORD that was with God and also God himself.

The whole key to the preexisting of Christ is wrapped up in understanding THE WORD.

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And the WORD was GOD...basically reiterating what Praxeas already posted.

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Exactly right.

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I agree.

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But how was the WORD also WITH GOD?

Is there something we can go to in the Old Testament and discover that was WITH GOD and also WAS GOD similtaneously?

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GALATIANS 4:4 sums it up pretty well.

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Help me understand, first, your position.

Are you suggesting that The Word and God were separate from one another, or possessed intellect apart from the other?

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Wow... we have a plethora of thoughts and we're pretty much evenly dividided on most possibilities... even the one I didn't include.

Does Brother Epley (and other UC's ) still come around?

I'd like to know where he stands.

For those who have stated that the song existed before his humanity as the Father...

What preincarnate purpose did the son serve?
In what capacity did the son operate preincarnate?

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Did someone in fact say that? I would say He existed as God - the Word, but not really as the Father to the Son...

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If the Church was predestined before the foundation of the world, then God planned to come to earth and live among us and redeem us before creation. He planned to offer up the body of Christ so that Jesus could be the first born of many children of God. God is a Spirit; there is only one Spirit, and Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Would you mind explaining your thought on the bolded. I think I know what you're trying to say but can you elaborate?

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In this thread I explain from the Old Testament about how the WORD was with God but at the same time was God. How the WORD was distinct from God and yet was God. Unlike Trinitarianism the Oneness of God is preserved.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=28949

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Simply that prior to his birth as a man the Son pre-existed as the Word and God Himself. His birth as a man is what gave functionality to the Father/Son relationship.

So while we might say the Son or the Word was Father of creation or even time - owing to his deity, it should not be said that Jesus is the Father of the Son.

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Passages such as Philippians 2 indicate that the Father and Son existed before the incarnation.

As the verse says, the Son "emptying himself" refers to his laying aside his heavenly glory and coming to earth as a man.

And there are other Scriptures, like the one you mentioned earlier in the thread.

I don't see how someone can come to any other conclusion but that both the Father and Son existed as separate "persons" before the Incarnation. I realize that the English word "persons" has some negative connotations, but it's the most precise word we can come up with.

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none of those are right.

The son existed AS the father. He is the father. Son is only a depiction of the fleshly form. The spirit in the flesh is God & pre-existed all.

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The Son existed as the Father?

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The son was the father in flesh. Son was what defined the flesh worn by God as He manifested himself to us

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I understand The Son existed in God's mind,but I don't see God manifesting Himself in flesh before the incarnation.

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You need to bite into an Eskimo Pie.

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Are you asking of the flesh in general? The flesh began in the birthing of the new testement. The spirit in the flesh pre-existed time

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Eskimo pie does it taste pretty good ?

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I was thinking Of the word becoming flesh at the virgin birth.

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I totally agree with the preexistence of Father and Son (as God Himself).

I prefer persona over persons in modern language.

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I picked the one that I disagreed with least, but did not really want to comment on what I think and so entirely choose to duck this issue, as it goes a lot deeper than I care to go late at night. I will probably post later more on it later.

There is only one God, made manifest in Jesus Christ who was both Son of God and Son of Man. Then Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross, died, rose again, and after ascending into Heaven sent back His Spirit to indwell all those who would believe and obey.

I decided to leave my first statement up so that you could see that I changed my mind in mid-stream instead of editing myself as I normally would. Like I said, it is late.

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I believe the Son only existed in the mind and plan of God before incarnation.
This day have I begotten thee.......................happened twice at His birth and His resurrection NOT in eternity past.

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There is a phrase I have heard applied to geometry and it is quite mind boggling to some. "A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is NOT a square." For a square to be a rectangle it must have all the properties of a rectangle i.e. right angles and 2 sets of parallel sides that are perpendicular. But a rectangle is not a square because it doesn't meet the definition of having all sides the same length.

This is similar to someone saying they believe "The Son" is God. In order for the Son to be God the Son must meet all the properties of being God. One property which God possesses is eternal existence. Therefore if one truly says "The Son" is God one must believe "The Son" existed for all eternity. And if "The Son" existed for all eternity then surely "The Son" prexisted the birth of Jesus.

However, I think many oneness pentecostals don't believe that "The Son" is God. I think they believe that God is "The Son" and that "The Son" is NOT God. As demonstrated earlier with squares and rectangles there is a difference.

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But that verse does not mention the Son. It mentions "Christ" Jesus. And it mentions the "form" of God.

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Praxeas said "I think the Son pre-existed being human as God Himself" and you replied "Stated perfectly" along with others who agreed as well.

If the son pre-existed as God himself... was he God the son? How did he exist?

You mention persona before... did he have his own personality or consciousness?

I find that statement very confusing when one delves into the ramifications thereof. God... in my mind... is the Father. God the Father. So it was a bit of an assumption upon Praxeas' statement to use the term Father in my statement but in my thinking that is, basically, what was said.

Your answer to the questions above will go far in helping me get a picture of what Praxeas, yourself & others meant when the statement was made.

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From beginning to end... agreed.