The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

To some, the idea of a Final Judgement seems unreasonable. This is where the idea of universalism surfaces. Some contend that those who in this life reject the offer of salvation will, after their death and Christ's second coming, be sobered by their situation and will therefore be reconciled to Christ.

While I won't pretend this is an easy matter to resolve (certainly a couple passages appears contradictory), but I believe we can understand them better in light of all scriptures on that subject. It's never good to form a doctrine on ambiguity.

Contradictory Scriptures?
Phil 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee (shall) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Col 1:19-20 "In Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

More verses used: Romans 5:18; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

To be continued...

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Other scriptures seem to contradict the idea of Universalism though:

Mt 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Also: Mt 8:12, John 3:16, 5:28-29; Romans 2:5; 2 Thess 1:9

Can these apparent contradictions be reconciled (that is the question)? Millard Erickson, says, "A fruitful endeavor here it to interpret the universalistic passages in such a way as to fit with the restrictive ones." So, for example, Phil 2:10-11 and Col 1:19-20 do not say that all will be saved and restored to fellowship with God. They speak only of setting right the disrupted order of the universe, the bringing of all things into the subjection to God. But this could be achieved by forcing the rebels into reluctant submission; it does not necessarily point to an actual return to fellowship.

To give some slack to this post, I will skip over commentary on the other verses for now. I am happy to deal with them though (the universal effect of Adam's sin vs. how that applies to the universal dimension of Christ's work - Rom 5:18 for example). Most of this just requires us to read the preceding and proceeding verses. For example, Romans 5:17 says that "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ." The term "many," rather than "all" is used in verses 15 and 19 --- same restrictive use in 1 Cor 15:22.

Continued...

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Eternal Punishment

Not only is the future judgment of unbelievers irreversible, but their punishment is eternal. Annihilationism attempts to refute this, but the biblical evidence is staggering. It contradicts both OT and NT references to the "unending" or "unquenchable" fire. Jesus borrows the imagery of Isa 66:24: "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Other words are used to reinforce this too:
"Everlasting" "eternal" "forever"

all applied to nouns designating the future state of the wicked: fire or burning (Isa 33:14, Jer 17:4, Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

But the question is asked...

What kind of God is it who is not satisfied by a finite punishment, but makes humans suffer for ever and ever? The punishment seems out of proportion to the sin, for presumably all sins are finite acts against God. How does one square a belief in a good, just and loving God with eternal punishment? I think these are good questions as they reference the very character and nature of God....

We should know that when we sin, an infinite factor is involved. All sin is an offense against God, the raising of a finite will against an infinite God. It is failure to carry out one's obligation to him to whom everything is due. So sin cannot be considered just a finite act deserving finite punishment.

God does not send anyone to hell. He desired that none should perish (2 Pet 3:9). It is the choice of humans to experience the agony of hell. Their sin sends them there, and their rejection of the benefit of Christ's death prevents their escape. They've resisted the protective cover of His body.

C.S Lewis: "It's like saying, 'Go away and leave me alone.'" Hell is saying back, "You may have your wish." It is God leaving one to oneself, as they've chosen, despite the pain it brings him.

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Implications:

1) Decisions we make in this life will govern our future condition not merely for a period of time, but for all eternity. This should sober us.

2) Conditions of this life are transit in nature -- they fade into significance when compared to eternity.

3) The nature of future estates is far more intense than anything known in this life. Images, dreams, imaginations... all are inadequate. The joy we will have there far transcends how we even relate to the idea of joy here.

4) Hell is not so much a torture chamber of physical suffering, as it is an intense and awful loneliness of total and final separation from the Lord.

The judgement of God is severe and serious. He sent His own Son, wrapped Himself in flesh to bear that judgment. This was a job he had to do himself. He absorbed the penalty, made an escape route and simply asked us to get back into covenant with Him by believing. He even said we wouldn't go back to tit-for-tat, being condemned by our own records, but that we would be seen in Him.

The eternal punishment was so severe, He had to come establish a way out.

This is the heart of the Gospel. It's HOPE! There's a way out! But this also means, denying, refusing or rejecting that way out is an eternal decision.

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For God to Universally save everyone, there is no Gospel, no Mission, no Church, no Pentecost. If he "willed" it to be done, it would be done. No plan, no good news --- the reality is.... it's like saying can he create a rock too heavy to lift... he can't. He made us to have a choice. He's made it hard to refuse. He's made it difficult to turn down. He's drowned us in a sea of Grace when he shows up, but it can still be refused. It's the very nature and law of His own creation. It's that vulnerable flaw that gives it beauty --- life, instead of plastic reproduction.

But He's done all the work. He just asks us to rest, trust and believe in Him. Not a bad deal :)

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:haloplug CREDIT: A good chunk of this post was abbreviated, paraphrased and sometimes verbatim old notes from aTheology II class I once took --- Instructor was Prof. Crosby. Textbook was "Christian Doctrine" by Millard Erickson.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

That "every knee will bow" does not equate "every heart will be saved". Also this is like me saying "Hey, are you coming to the party? Everyone will be there"..does not mean every one from every nation that ever lived and died or will be born and die will be there

Other verses speak on the purpose of what He did. Yet in context we often see a condition

Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

There are hard questions that seem difficult ot reconcile such as why burn sinners forever when one has no choice but be a sinner.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Actually, TS, they are offered a way out through Jesus.

Read the post again -- God does not torture sinners forever, they are condemned and judged by their own actions, and God's own character, Justice. But He loved them enough to not only come up with a way out, but came Himself to be that Way out.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Good stuff, Prax.

Even though this is part of a standard letter greeting/introduction, it has good theological points in it.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

where is Crackjack?

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

:thumbsup

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If there is a burning hell then God does torture sinners.

If I got it right yopu believe hell is just a seperation from God? not an actual physical punishment?

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The above view of God, is a god that is confused and impotent toward his creation, powerless to complete what he began. Why? because he failed to take in to account the power of Satan and the ALL POWERFUL WILL of those that he created.

This is not the God of the Bible, it is a god created in the image of his creation, by men who make excuses for the failure of the this wimpy creator.

BUT JESUS CHRIST THE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, TO THE RESCUE!!!!

"...FEAR NOT FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD...!

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A confused and powerless God? If he didn't respect our own will, there would have never been a fall to begin with. Let's keep it in perspective.

He didn't fail, He won. And he's offered a way out through Him... through Him... through Him... that is the Gospel!!

What are you reading, Crak?

Empty rhetoric, my friend, empty rhetoric.

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"own free will" That's another good topic. Does man have a freewill about being a sinner? Nope.

There are scriptures that seem to support both sides.

Didn't Jesus no man cometh to father lest he draws them?

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Nonsense, my friend, He is the first cause, He set up the garden, and allowed the serpent access.

His original plan included the fall, for His full purpose. It is all plan A, no plan B.

If your view is correct, and you say he has "offered" a way out, why is it so unlikely for most humans to find this "way out"?

No, I believe we have been listening to "empty rhetoric" way too long. HE is not powerless or impotent to save, HE came and carried the load HIMSELF. And HE will save to the uttermost, HE is the refining fire that will "thoroughly" cleanse HIS creation.

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What does the garden tell us about God? He wants to provide? What does the serpent's existence tell us about God? He wants us to not trust God's providence. God desires our trust. Us trusting Him that He knows what's best.

You have a lot of explaining to do if you believe The Fall was Plan A, God's will, that is pleases Him... Let's talk about a sadistic God, shall we.

Stop the strawman about him being "powerless" to save. His blood is life. Of course he came and carried the load Himself --- for all who believe. That fact is, I can't even list all the scriptures and quotes from the Gospels that include "for all who believe" "for all who are called" "for those whom he elected" "for those who love the Lord" etc... It would fill a list a couple pages long. Get your pen out!

Let's get back to the argument. Point-for-point, verse-for-verse, we could go on all day like this.

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Crackjack, you do not dissapoint!

I do not agree with you but that doesnt mean I dont respect your study and commitment to the cause!

Be blessed my friend!

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Wasn't the lamb slain before the foundations of the world? Some think that means before the earth was even created, of so, then wouldn't it indeed be plan A?

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Are you just asking to ask? These questions don't match your other posts.

I really don't have time to go down that trail.. at least today. The language in the verse is the key... and that this is from The Revelation should also be considered. There's an answer, but my fingers don't have the drive.

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Asking to get input. Not even sure if that scripture means what many says it does. If does mean what some say it does then it would God knew ahead of time he was coming to save man from sin which means it was Gods will.

I understand about low drive sometimes for the fingers, sometimes I don't it to reply to some posts.

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TS, that there is a judgment does not mean God "tortures sinners." Man has condemned himself. He stepped outside of protection that God provided.

In Western thought, stories like Achan, Adam & Eve --- or even David and his generations banned from the Temple don't make sense to us. Corporate responsibility is pushed aside by a relatively new understanding of individual responsibility and free will -- not that those ideas didn't exist before, just that they existed in a different perspective. This is pretty important so we don't have a limited perspective about free will vs. predestination, etc.

Adam's fail was indicative of all of mankind. You can't explain that not only did this affect man's moral life and, therefore, every area of relationship, but it affected the ground. It affected the material universe, the physical universe. And Romans 8 says: "The whole creation groans" under this curse. The reason there is disintegration, death and all of that in the entire universe goes right back to Genesis Chapter 3.

Whether we came out sinning or just inclined by nature toward sin -- we could argue. But the fact is, even in the womb we were "in sin." Imputed sin.

Us Post-Enlightenment Moderns can struggle over the free will nature of that, but it's the reality of scripture --- and as far as I've seen, it's the reality of human nature. We aren't inclined toward goodness.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Crak -- feedback, comments from the original posts in this thread?

Let's get into the meat and potatoes.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

If there is a hell then who created it? God did. For what purpose? to punish the wicked.

I think we just don't like saying God tortures the wicked in a buring infernal, but he created, deciodes who goes and long it would be. IMO, no way around not accepting God punishes sinners.

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TS, there's not a "way around" there's just a different perspective.

Also, I do not believe that Hell is a physical torture chamber. You were correct in your previous assumption.

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I have doubts about the hell being an actual burning place myself. Do think when Jesus preached hell it was tied into the destruction of jerusalem, but that's another thread. :thumbsup

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I have addressed all of those on other threads, however give me time and I will walk thru them again for all the newbies. :highfive

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Thanks, Ferd, appriecate your kind words. You are special folks in my book.

Your new building is looking great, how does everyone like being in full view of all of Dallas?

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I never cared to jump in before. So now I'm game. If you want to link to old stuff, that's cool. But rather than wade hundreds of pages, I thought we could start with a fresh sheet of paper.

Looking fwd.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Universalist Fallacy #1

The Nature & Character of God is reduced.

Fowler:

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Universalist Fallacy #2 - God's Love

Though the desire and “will of God” is clearly stated, for “God is not willing that any should perish” (II Pet. 3:9), this does not necessarily imply that God must bring this to pass in universal enactment, for this once again binds God in a logical necessity.

Divine love must be understood in relational context (Father/Son/Spirit). Mechanical understandings of God's love as this unilateral force, deterministically and omnipotently imposing on man the "will of God" is a great violence to the proper understanding of God's love. Relational love cannot be forced or coerced. On a human level this is called “rape,” and on the divine level such a unilateral determination to coerce man to participate in God’s love does violence to the genuine faith-love relationship that God intends by a freely chosen response and willingness of man to be intimately involved with Himself.

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Universalist Fallacy #3 More on God's Love

God IS Love. We don't judge His love by doing, the finite judging the infinite.

More from Fowler:

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Universalist Fallacies #4 - Judgment & Divine Wrath

Universalism often reacts with emotional venom at the mention of divine judgment or wrath. God's love is not necessarily a denial of His justice and judgment. His love and justice are not competing or contradicting even.

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Universalism Fallacy #5

Reinterpreting Scripture

The only way to prove Universalism is to re-imagine, re-interpret and become creative with texts properly understood for centuries.

Also, Greek words like 'aionion and aionios' which translated into English denote "everlasting, for ever, for evermore", they say are only used in a temporary sense (eon, eon of the eons, eonian, age-during, age's past, etc.) This has poor scholarship written all over it, and it completely ignores context in which the usage of the words is given.

Universalists also propagate the inaccurate teaching that the word "all" in scripture, is "everything, all with no exceptions" --- this is also easily defeated in light of scripture.

There are more fallacies. I become interested more in the philosophical fallacies (what it means about the Gospel, the Incarnation, etc), but I'm willing to dabble with you.

So, let's jump in!

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And just for fun -- are there sects within Universalism that believe even Satan and his angels will be properly restored as well?

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Hell (Eternal flames of torture and punishment) makes absolutely no sense, and cannot be validated from Old Testament teachings and sound Jewish Theology. The Jews have argued this subject thoroughly, and the flaws are endless; removes the "Free Will" from men; who really goes there?; how does Mercy play in?; why does God allow the propagation of humans if most are destined to burn forever?; how does a Church describe the remedy to avoid a place they cannot see or touch?; which Church should one attend which carries the baton to Heaven?

Hell is also found in other Religions of the World, long before Christianity ever was. In fact, Hell can be traced clear back to Ancient Egypt and Greece, centuries before Jesus Christ was born. There are proven ties to the Hell of the New Testament and ancient pagan faith’s of the World.

The link below (and statement from the link) also shows translational error(s) within Scripture, proving the flaw of man and his lust for the "Fear Bound" tactic of condemning the disobedient via Spectral realms. If people can't truly question the validity of the unseen, manipulation by terror is a wide open door to those in authority.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/He...e_Forever.html

"Dear reader, are you aware that 2000 years after the gospel was sent into the world, that there are literally thousands of languages in the earth today which do NOT have even pieces of Scriptures let alone an entire Bible? Do you understand that from Adam to the present day, probably well over 95 percent of the world never heard the one name under which men must be saved? Are you also aware that most of the world who did hear the name hear it from a Catholic priest who told them that Jesus was a piece of cracker which they had to eat in order to be saved? Are you also aware that most denominations of Christianity throughout the ages have added hundreds of other qualifications which potential converts also had to perform or rules one had to abide by in order to stay saved? The list is endless-it ranges from being a member of the "right" church or denomination to a certain form of water baptism to declaring a certain formula to having to speak in tongues, etc. Once a person is saved, there are literally hundreds of ways one can lose their salvation according to the thousands of different denominations which have formed around creeds, men, styles of buildings and worship, nationality, forms of church government, etc."

This subject has horrifying affects on those who “THINK” they know God, and I’ve personally observed abusive behavior, using HELL in debate to draw the line. Also, people are afraid to question Hell because of being indoctrinated by those who say they have the facts about the afterlife, when in reality, they don't.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

Drive-by, on-my-way-out-the-door post... but what you described here does not describe me or anyone I have fellowship with... and we ALL believe in Hell. We have differing opinions about it, and though most of us don't feel it's a flaming torture pit, we believe those descriptions are adequate to describe the intensity of being isolated from God.

Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 

What does the "Cracky" in your thread title mean?