Apostolic Friends Forum - Can Women Pastor ?

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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 860117)

I'm only affirming what the Scriptures clearly teach. Do you cut your hair? I doubt it. Well, I'm just quoting from the same Book!

I too quote from the same book...however we see thngs in a different light..

Yes, I mentioned Brother Scheels but not in a negative way comparing his professional work to what some other person said about it...

Re: Speaking of "Ignorant"........................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey
I give. You won't be honest enough to say you are flying by the seat of your pants on your limited knowledge of hermeneutics and the more you respond the more ignorant you sound.

Let's see: You're vaguely familiar w/ Daniel Wallace, claim that apologetics "have nothing to do" w/ a polemical disscussion, enquire about logical fallacies....then claim that "I" have limited hermeneutic comprehension???? I see, you've apparently "arrived"?? Apparently NOT. Next.....

The difference between you and I is that I don't throw out names without knowing what I'm talking about. Do you realize how many scholars are out there, particularly scholars of Koine Greek? Thank you for introducing him to me. I'm glad you've been acquainted. Shall I go through my bookshelve to try and name stump you?

And will you quit talking about apologetics! haha. Because a discussion is polemical in nature, doesn't make it related to apologetics. Try again. I've studied a great deal in Christian apologetics. I assure you that women in minsitry has never been a topic we've covered -- it's not remotely within the scope of Christian Apologetics! ha. As far as my insistence on you flying by the seat of your pants, you continue to prove my point.

Context is doctrinal? I about spit my water out of my nose. Context is neutral, it is the framework behind the so-called "literal text" and it gives the text meaning.

And my eyes got as wide a saucers when I read this. "Context is neutral"??? You apparently don't understand context. Context is the overall subject matter that the writer is dealing w/....which you claim is "neutral"?? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeew! I suppose Paul's teachings on faith were then "neutral"?? Man, this just gets worse & worse! Next.....

Seriously, you should just stop. :ursofunny Go ahead. Go get your hermeneutic book out and go freshen up, and then come back, because you are sounding frankly off-the-chart ignorant right now. Context is not subject matter, it includes: historical-cultural considerations (when was the letter written, to whom, for what reason, what customs are different, etc), the immediate text that both precedes and proceeds after the passage in question (this could include a whole chapter, whole letter or even more broad than that). Yes, context is not doctrinal! :smack We form doctrine from our exegesis from the Text, which we arrive at using context. Help you a bit?

A word changes according to its context. It also helps us understand authorial intent. You are awkwardly pitting exegetical context against literary, syntactical context. I have no idea why.

NOt at all, for about the 6th time now, I'll say again that context most certainly plays a part in exegesis. In fact, I'd say that context is one of the primary interpretation rules. But, I've said this for about 6 times now, so I'm sure you'll simply ignore this also???
See above. You continue to contradict yourself. I suspect the issue here is knowing what "context" is. Perhaps you are under a nothing presupposition (another factor of exegesis by the way), concerning what the word means. And everytime you've said it, you issued a qualifier that showed me you don't understand.

Trinitarian? Calvnist? Non-Christian Spirit? (Have you read a thing you've said to others on here. Not exactly God come in humble flesh material).

Oh brother, so you obviously are reluctant to affirm your doctrinal posture...next.....
Oh... good comeback. Real good. Man, you told me. "You disagree with me... quick think of the most 'heretical' people you can insult him with: you are a Calvinist! Neener, neener, neener!" Seriously though.

I think I've engaged you more than most on here. We took a tangent because when cocky people start spouting out things (especially posers), it's cynically fun to exploit that. You, my dear "Watson," have been exploited

Tks. for the smile this morning. This coming from someone who isn't even "terribly familiar" w/ possibly the greatest Greek scholar/textual critic of our day, has not even read Hartill's infamous book on Hermeneutics, derides logical fallacies that he makes repeatedly...then says "You've been exposed as a poser"??? Yea' man....next......
To the subject at hand - the question is to wonder if Paul was reinforcing an already-existent universal prohibition against women teachers, creating a new one, or determine what situation he was responding to (the complex nature of epistles).
Aside from Hartill (not Harthill btw), there are numerous recognized books on Hermeneutics. One of the best is written by Gordon Fee, others by DR Dungan, Darryl Erkel, and a phenominal book co-authored by Duvall and Hays. You hardly own the corner on Hermeneutic textbooks. So other than throwing out Hartill's name, what is your training in Hermeneutics? I wouldn't continue to ask this except throughout this thread you've posed as an expert, when really your less than novice. Just be honest. Your argument against women preachers has been argued by people more experienced than you, so you have valid arguments to bring to the table, but just stop the posing.

Now we're getting somewhere. As I've pointed out, the epistle was addressing church order, as it plainly says. And it's from this perspective that Paul commands, "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man." He then appeals to the creation model to butress his doctrine.

But why was this an issue in "church order?" Do we know? Why would he mention this piece about women? Could the issue of husbands and wives be one of an issue of their behavior when assembled? All possibilities.

Honestly here, who would simply allow this text [& I Cor. 14:34] to speak for itself & conclude that God calls women into His authoritative 5-fold ministry? This is precisely the thing that he was forbidding.

Great question for the forum. About the "authoritative five-fold ministry: this includes more than just pastors and more than just individuals that teach adult men at public meetings. Are you sure you want to take it that far?

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Since your away, here's some reading material for you (all methods below form a process to full exegete the Text):

Lexical-syntactical method: This method looks at the words used and the way the words are used. Different order of the sentence, the punctuation, the tense of the verse are all aspects that are looked at in the lexical syntactical method. Here, lexicons and grammar aids can help in extracting meaning from the text.
Historical/cultural method: The history and culture surrounding the authors is important to understand to aid in interpretation. For instance, understanding the Jewish sects of the Palestine and the government that ruled Palestine in New Testament times increases understanding of Scripture. And, understanding the connotations of positions such as the High Priest and that of the tax collector helps us know what others thought of the people holding these positions.
Contextual method: A verse out of context can often be taken to mean something completely different from the intention. This method focuses on the importance of looking at the context of a verse in its chapter, book and even biblical context.
Theological method: It is often said that a single verse usually doesn't make a theology. This is because Scripture often touches on issues in several books. For instance, gifts of the Spirit are spoken about in Romans, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. To take a verse from Corinthians without taking into account other passages that deal with the same topic can cause a poorer interpretation.
Special literary methods: There are several special literary aspects to look at, but the overarching theme is that each genre of Scripture has a different set of rules that applies to it. Of the genres found in Scripture, there are: narratives, histories, prophecies, apocalyptic writings, poetry, psalms and letters. In these, there are differing levels of allegory, figurative language, metaphors, similes and literal language. For instance, the apocalyptic writings and poetry have more figurative and allegorical language than does the narrative or historical writing. These must be addressed, and the genre recognized to gain a full understanding of the intended meaning.

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

You know honestly I need to do some indepth bible study myself on alot of subjects.

Re: Speaking of "Ignorant"........................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 860146)

Ho-Hum, where to begin.

You again post in a way that I don't know how to respond to each post, though I'd love to. Forgive my computer illiteracy.

I did catch your statement implying that women preachers was never an apologetical issue in Christian circles. I almost fell out of my chair when I read this! Good grief, this issue has been debated for eons...yet you imply that it's "never been an apologetical issue"??????????? Seriously, you're just sinking further & further unbeknownst to you.

Context is the topic/subject matter at hand. Are you denying this? Yes [for about the 7th time now...Ho-Hum???] culture/history can flow into context, but it does not render said passage inapplicable to the church. Scorn it all day long, makes noooo difference to me. You apparently aren't the "apologist/scholar" you would have everyone believe on here. In sum, "Ain't fallin' for it!"

Forced to run, library closing. Brifly scanned your post regarding exegesis. My response: AND??? I've never denied this [let's see this makes probably about 8 times I've said...wierd???]..........so, back to the text.

Look, we'll not agree on hermeneutics, so how about we just stick to the actual text of I Tim. 2, for starters. Try to respond sometime Thurs.

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 860123)

I simply affirmed that I [& others more experienced in Greek than I] disagree w/ his exegesis of the texts that he appeals to in the book. Why don't you acknwoledge my positive comments about the man as well...inconsistent.

See ya' Thurs. sometime, LORD willing.....................

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Sister Alvear you are a great woman of Jesus. You are very respected by men of God and women as well. Jesus bless you.

Re: Speaking of "Ignorant"........................

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 860237)

1) "Apologetic trick" remember when you said that? Nothing we are discussing here has anything to do with the field of Apologetics. Apologetics speaks in defense of issues much more broad (defending Christianity in general, existence of God, presenting a rational basis for faith, and exposing flaws of non-Christian worldviews. If you wanted to loosely use the word "apologist" sure. Anyhow. You won't ever (of course) admit or agree you had no clue when you said what you did.

2) Historical-cultural context most assuredly can change the way we view/see/intepret the Text. I could list examples, but once I'll be brief and just explain to you these basic concepts of hermeneutics.

3) I'm not an apologist or scholar. I'm a student. I've never pretended to be such. You, however, have acted as a poser and I've simply called you out on it. The more you protest, the more you hang yourself.

A correct hermeneutic is paramount and fundamentally important to understanding the authorial intent of 1 Timothy 2.

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Sis. Alvear, it'd be great to have Scheels on here.
I haven't been satisfied with either argument at this point. For the non-women teaching/preaching crowd, they have to actively minimize the role of women leaders mentioned in Acts, Romans and other Epistles. They also lose sight of cultural changes and how that affects our presentation of the Gospel. For the pro-women teaching/pastoring crowd, they have not provided a strong defense of 1 Cor/1 Timothy combined IMO. Sam indicated 1 Cor 14 was Paul's repeating arguments from Corinth, in which Paul responds in objection (the proceding verses). Godsdrummer argues from 1 Timothy that this is with regard to relationship of husband and wife. RDP raises a good point: toward the end of the letter, Paul states his purpose, and indicates the issues concern public assembly. One can then ask what the problem was in the public assembly? Women of God teaching/preaching? Or was there a different problem? Could it still have been among husbands/wives. If only the early church video tapes their services!

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 860290)

You knw dear one...I am not for and never have been for forward women...however to say women are not used of God in ministry is not right and does not even go along with the thought of the Bible...I came to Brazil so young and just a girl...however HE that called saw today...I did not....today I do not even have to minister there are so many but there was a time....I was all alone....
It was very difficult...today I am so blessed by Brother Alvear, he is so talented and such an awesome preacher...our soni s an awesome preacher also along with a few adopted sons...today I am very blessed...I am glad I followed and obeyed...