Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

If your point is that divorce hadn't taken been finalized yet... no one said it had.
If your point is that they were at the pool without any other mutual friends present then you are assuming and not even giving us any reasons for your assumptions.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Not really. Even if he was invited to the pool, as long as he came even a minute later he found her in a bikini while another man was present.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

In a day and age of no fault divorce apparently wedding vows mean little.

Even if I walked in and caught my wife in flagrante delicto with some guy I cannot definitely say there would be a divorce. I love her too much. There were be hurt, and maybe it would in fact end up that way, but the thought of divorce would not be the first one, it would be the last. And even then it is doubtful I would be the one to file.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

It's as if finding any shred of indiscretion is what the culture seeks after to justify divorce.

Its a sign of spiritual disease when mixed bathing trumps a lifetime commitment.

I have personal knowledge and close ties regarding another similar case regarding a Georgia UPCI woman who fell in love with a minister and was sharing their relationship and engagement on Everybody's Apostolic ... pictures and all.

The only problem was he was separated with his wife of many years .... leaving her while she was battling cancer ... with no evidence of indiscretion but later threw out accusations in order to justify his mess.

Of course, the wife also on EA found out and was quite shocked.

The wife did contact the woman and her pastor ... and nothing came of it.

Divorce was finalized ... guy got married.

A non-org Apostolic minister engaged before his divorce and relatively not one of his peers bats an eye.

The man also blamed the ex-wife for not having enough faith, or being a true Christian, in dealing with her cancer because she went to the doctor for treatment.

Guy still preaches.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

This thread is beginning to feel as if it needs to be merged with the Chauvinism thread. Apostolic women who stick with unbelieving men are praised for their tenacity and their faithful prayers for their non-Christian spouse. I've heard the stories all my life about determined little women who go to church and get beat for it and finally one day the man converts and everyone lives happily ever after.

Apparently Apostolic men are free to (or maybe encouraged to?) divorce their wives if they backslide or become something less than a "real Pentecostal."

Double standard, anyone?

I can't imagine my Dad threatening to leave my Mom for not going to church or wearing a bathing suit. Sorry. As ultra con as he was, he loved her more than anything, and she couldn't do wrong in his eyes. He probably would have chalked it up to a *hot flash*, stomped around the house yelling about it or maybe as a last resort, tried to rebuke the devil out of her, but divorce her? Perish the thought. :blink

I think the problem we're having on this thread is that we don't know that she was ALONE with the friend's husband. There are two different ways to take the statement, but either way you take it, without further evidence, she's guilty of impropriety at worst.

I wonder if the definition of fornication was modified to include "exhibitionism" in order to make the accusation stand. I wonder if Pastor Fogarty had ever included that in the definition before? :coffee2

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

We can't judge this woman's motives for wearing a bikini. We can surely judge that a bikini is immodest clothing to wear in public but no one can know why she wore it when she did.

Calling it fornication is a joke....a bad joke and a poor excuse used by her ex to remarry.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

that is an excellent question!

EDIT: Even more notably is that he adds child abuse to the definition of fornication?

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

There has always been a double standard.

It isn't the man's fault she was dressed like Jezebel.

I can't tell you the number of times I have heard the ladies of the church warned about what they wear and how it could cause a man to fall.

How about young men guard your minds, stop leering at the ladies.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

:thumbsup

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Is that broad brush or are you implying I am not an Apostolic man?

:huh

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Sorry, it was a very broad brush. When I say Apostolic, I think "ultra con." It's interchangeable in my head, and I haven't broken that connection yet. :rolleyes2

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

LOL compared to a lot around here lately I am an ultra-con.

But with a revelation of grace nonetheless. :-)

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Ultra-cons don't allow than sin to grow on their face JG.

Or that sinful jewelry either.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Yes, it does appear to indicate that the plaintiff was trending away from the usual Apostolic/Pentecostal lifestyle; though in no way does it suggest her involvement in "adultery, child molestation and bestiality" as the taped statement from the pulpit insinuated.

Hyping the alleged "falling away" of those who "go charismatic" and saying things like, "they're shacking up with young men" or "they had a hair cutting party on the platform while the 'backsliding pastor' toyed with his new pinkie ring" are similar charges that have even been made here.

This time, the guy who went too far was assessed with considerable legal fees and damages by a court. Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned?

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Facial hair on men is now UPCI general conference platform standard approved or haven't you heard?

The Bible speaks of silver and gold and costly array as being sinful. The cross is stainless steel, and every garment I own combined would be maybe $400. I know plenty of my fellow cons which have individual suits worth four times that.

Funny aside, I went to lunch with several other members of the APF last year. I was the only one long sleeves, solid color shirt, (mine was white) and one of the few not sporting an expensive pen.

Don't own a pair of shorts, even for the gym. So yeah compared to most here I'm an ultra-con.

:-)

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Great post. It is as if the male , for the most part, is to pounce on any thread or bikini so as to exchange it for a get out jail free card.

I surely hope this was not one of the reasons for the divorce if initiated by Mr. Driver.

If so and if the ultra-con maxim is true that one's pastor is accountable for one's soul and this not being fornication even among those who see adultery as the only reason for divorce and remarriage than ... There are souls in eternal peril at the approval of their pastor

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Maybe I can help you there. I'll put on a bikini and walk around some pools around here. It won't be a "divorce proceeding" though.

Do you handle involuntary commitments and remands to the state hospital?

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Yes I have handled some, but not sure how to Segue that into a 200 grand fee.

:bliss

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Thats the truth.

If I find my wife in a bikini in a pool with another man (and no one else around) well........

Come on people, even if NOTHING had happened at the time, that is a recipe for disaster.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

If my wife were running around in a bikini I would feel sorry for him

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

I would tend to discount the claims you've speculated on as "ultra-con" here. I know that's preached and believed, but I think it is intended as a mask for some financial gain and other ulterior motives.

But, we are seeing something of a shift in the landscape. 20 and 30 years ago, if a spouse wanted out of an Apostolic marriage for any reason they were considered irreparably hell bound; especially if it was a woman who wanted out.

Today, people have become more educated and more aware of both their theology and their legal rights. Many of the chains of the past are breaking. We do need to exercise some wisdom here too, I suppose. Let's not uproot the foundations. Just a thought.

Is it ever proper to use thyme on green beans without rosemary? Bikini or no, I may need Griff if I've messed up my night doing dinner.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

And the point of Brat's post is even if you did just that every Friday many holiness pastors would counsel your wife to stick it out and would canonize her as a saint.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Wow, that's a pretty good likeness. You know her?

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

LOL. Why don't you post the link I showed you where they did just that?

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Sorry I missed this. Yes, I live in Georgia.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

:thumbsup I think someone said she initiated it .

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Your wife obviously doesnt get on here!!!!:)

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

So swimsuits are now "fornication"? Thats just weird, I don't care who you are.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

This is a seriously dangerous mindset. I would rather live in what was the Soviet Union than have someone make these types of judgments in the name of God.

And no I don't want everyone to wear bikinis...

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

If uncut hair can give you power and authority to summon angels
and modest clothing gives you power before the throne ....

then most definitely swimsuits are fornication ...
and divorces justifiable for mixed bathing.

welcome to the 21st century world of radical, jihadist Apostolica.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Negative Dan Drudge. Only a small minority accept this junk.

IMO the greatest nod this stuff gets is silence by the majority. No one wants to be the one to speak up and make the waves...

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

If I, as a Conservative woman, was at the pool side with a man who was NOT my husband and dressed in a bikini, I would wager to say, I had already been doing something to get me there. Just sayin'.....

So, we are finding this to be acceptable dress in mixed company? Am I understanding that to be true? If so, I remember when we used to walk away from things, now it appears we are walking back to a place we, once, wanted to leave behind. The spiraling down of modesty. Who would have thunk? I should have stayed a Catholic. I could wear a bikini, get drunk and still be saved. I must be getting the raw end of the deal - ya think? LOL!

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

No one wears bikinis in our family... and yet I can think of many times I/we were in the same vicinity as those who were. Beach, street, in the homes of my customers... Never crossed my mind that they were fornicators.

And remember, the issue is not so much about what we should be wearing, but a pastor saying it is fornication, and constitutes reason for divorce. That's scary and far more questionable than the swimsuit it'self.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

No girls in my household are going to be wearing bikinis. But, wearing a bikini is not fornication, or adultery, which is what this woman was accused of.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

But we don't know the whole story. And wearing a bikini is not fornication.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

What? Like driving your car? Taking the bus? A cab ride to the city pool?
It seems the marriage was on the rocks. That's the only case that needs to be made to find grounds for a divorce. And then, when the legal stuff finally drags out and is complete, both parties should be a bit wiser and just move on.

Instead, some party on the sidelines here felt that it would be "helpful" for the gentleman to "move on" if they all first dragged the ex through the mud. You can do it that way, I suppose, but it will cost ya around a half million dollars to get 'er done.

Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 

I agree with you Stephen. It is not fornication to wear a bikini. Secular people at the beach think that it's normal.

The issue is, why is this women dressed in this fashion when her husband is not present? The article said that James FOUND his wife, wearing a bikini with the husband of a mutual friend. That means he was SHOCKED to find her in this fashion.

I'm with Bratti - not giving her a pass no matter what the pastor did. And, yes, he should be careful how he addressed the issue. We don't know if this caused a big stink in the church and he decided to address the church body. He can do that if he wants to. My point is that she was doing something wrong in her life to end up in a bikini at a pool side with another man. To say adultery or fornication was NOT going on is also speculation.