Apostolic Friends Forum - The Pre-Existence Of The Son

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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

I like Elder Dallas Mefford's rendition of Jn. 1:1 "In the beginning was the Thought and the Thought was with the Thinker and the Thought was the Thinker."
Suits me.:thumbsup

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112444)

What are your thoughts on what the verses I quoted are saying?

They say "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

These are my thoughts...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112389)

Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.

So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.

Condensing it: God exists simultaneously as omnipresent, invisble and yet He exists as in a visible form, known as the WORD. The visible form of God became flesh (the Man Christ Jesus). Therefore, that Man Christ Jesus is still our LORD, which is why we must worship him.
Nonetheless, God (in the invisble, omnipresent state) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice, it says our Lord. And as Christians, we have ONLY one Lord.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
So, there's a distinction in the visible and invisble existence of God, yet, only ONE (numerically One, not unity) God.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112389)

Yes you have the revelation Bro. Keep teaching it. Over and over and over. The error of the mainline Apostolic Church needs to be fixed before they can move on.

Every time there is a debate with the Trins when they challenge the Oneness debator about the pre existence the momentum always is lost by the Oneness. The dynamic changes and the group listening comes away feeling Oneness loses.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112476)

These are my thoughts...

Condensing it: God exists simultaneously as omnipresent, invisble and yet He exists as in a visible form, known as the WORD. The visible form of God became flesh (the Man Christ Jesus). Therefore, that Man Christ Jesus is still our LORD, which is why we must worship him.
Nonetheless, God (in the invisble, omnipresent state) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice, it says our Lord. And as Christians, we have ONLY one Lord.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
So, there's a distinction in the visible and invisble existence of God, yet, only ONE (numerically One, not unity) God.

Now we part.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112480)

Now we part.

Why do we part, elder?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112480)

Now we part.

Why? Hes telling you the truth.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112478)

Mike, you have no idea how I was kinda struggling with this topic. I am literally jumping right now. It's like a light bulb went off in my head.

Now, I do NOT have any problem at all in saying Jesus is the Son of God.
Now, it makes so much sense when Paul says "the Son is the express image of the invisible God"

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Adam was in the image of God, but the Son of God (Jesus) was the EXPRESS IMAGE of God's person.

Phil 2, Jn 17, are NOT trinity proof texts at all. Whew, I'm so excited.

I'm happy D4T brought this up. Thinking upon it (I've prayed about it too). It ALL makes perfect sense to me now.

No wonder it says:

Rev 22
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

and then turns right back and says:
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

That's why Jesus the Son of God (the express person of God) can say "I am Alpha and Omega"

Amen!!!!!!!!

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112478)

I have to say though, debates can never convince trinity on the truth of the oneness.

I believe Jesus has to bring you the revelation.

Luke 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

To teach that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity is actually Arianism. Here is the question I ask all folks who believe this.
"What happened to that body at the incarnation?"

Should be simple.:thumbsup Good luck. Micheal has never been able to answer that so I am waiting?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Col 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The fulness of the invisbile God dwells in his WORD. Ah, no wonder the WORD was with God and yet the WORD was God.

The visible existence of God created ALL things. Then it makes sense when Paul says:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God created ALL things by Jesus Christ!

Jesus ain't some surbodinate taking orders. He's the Alpha and Omega. He gives the orders.

Truly, the Son of God should be glorified, for he's the Almighty God.

Heb 1
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him

Rev 4
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Notice where the Lamb came from, Amen!

Rev 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.