Re: Christmas is pagan
 

He referenced people that apostolics wouldn't consider saved anyways. I mentioned Nona Freeman and TW Barnes would be lost right now, in hell if one believes that, due to them celebrating it. They both were apostolic, while the ones he threw in wouldn't be considered such. Nothing to do with a llight doctrine as you suppose. Maybe I should have asked are apostolics such as Freeman and Barnes lost since they celebrated it. Might have been a better question.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

If origins are wrong, then stop using the names of the week in English. Nearly all of them are pagan in origin.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Exactly. Acts 2:38 is a free pass on everything else.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

In the last 2 days I have seen one UPC Pastor asking people to bring in their extra Christmas lights for Church and another Pastor standing in front of a Christmas tree.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Is there something wrong with trees?

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

I didn't say that. Think what you want.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

When you deck them with silver and gold? Put them on a platform? Ask Jeremiah! :highfive

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

You should've been a defense attorney, your debate skills are unfathomable.

:thumbsup

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Are you suggesting that as long as a person is a Oneness Pentecostal they can get by with things others cannot get by with?

It seems there is a widespread belief that certain things are "essential to salvation", while other things are not essential but are matters of relative inconsequence. The essentials are roughly the following: Oneness (although many seem to question the essentiality of that), being dunked with a minister saying "in Jesus' name" or something equivalent, the Holy Ghost baptism with tongues, and various degrees of holiness standards (all debated vociferously by various factions). Everything else is generally viewed as "personal preference" and allowable.

I have yet to find this approach to things in the Bible, however. Scripture does speak of "doubtful disputations" but those are things that are actually doubtful. I do not see how pagan religious customs can be classed as "doubtful". And no, "doubtful" does NOT mean "somebody disagrees".

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Another drive by spray and pray posting, in classic style. Already addressed, but then you'd know that if you had actually read the thread.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

yes ...
Early church is also not celebrated Christmas until 368 AD.
Apostles are not celebrated this
And they proclaimed only on crucified Christ

Now Christmas is become as traditional festival like other religions festivals..
Very sad.. very sad..

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

From the other thread:



Baal was the Canaanite sun god and god of fertility. Pagan religions of different nations worshipped the same gods, but under different names and forms. Thus Ares to the Greeks was Mars to the Romans, etc. Also, many gods from one nation might be recognized as one god in another nation, and vice versa. Thus, Baal in Canaan would be identified with Amon, Ra, the later composite deity Amon-Ra, and Osiris in Egypt. Etc.

Pagans across Europe, North Africa, the middle east, Persia, and India, recognized the Sun God as "dying" (represented by and resulting in winter) but being revived, or reborn, or reincarnated, to bring the next spring/summer cycle. The Sun God was thus considered "eternal and immortal, conquering death through revivification". And so the Sun God was also the god of death, the god of the afterlife, and the god of immortality or "eternal life".

This Sun God was said to be reborn at the time of the winter solstice. This was common throughout the pagan world, regardless of nation. Thus, Mithra (the Persian Sun God, known to Romans as Sol Invictus) was said to born on December 25th. This Sun God was also nearly universally represented by evergreen trees and plants, symbolizing his immortality and conquering of death. This Sun God was also nearly universally associated with phallus worship (because of his association with life, rebirth, and fertility). Obelisks, ziggurats, poles, trees, stone pillars, etc are all well known symbols of the phallus, used throughout the pagan world.

European pagans using evergreen trees to represent life, eternal life, during the winter solstice, is nothing less than the Germanic (and Celtic!) variation on the same theme found throughout the Ancient World: worship of the Sun God and his phallic symbolism, who was "born" on December 25th.

Nobody seems to ask themselves: "WHY December 25th? WHY evergreen trees, holly, mistletoe? How did any of that ever get associated with Jesus Christ?"

The answer is pretty simple and obvious. The cult of the Sun God (Baal, Osiris, Ra, Mithra, etc) continues on in the guise of Catholicism and Protestantism. Baal is now near-universally worshipped under the name "Jesus", represented by phallic symbols and evergreens, born on December 25th, Lord of the Afterlife where the immortal human soul goes upon death of the physical body.

Modern Christendom is largely Baal worship. He's got a new name, but he's still the same old phallic Sun God, born in the winter, worshipped with evergreens, trees, obelisks (including steeples in his temples!). What people today can't wrap their minds around is that the gods CHANGE NAMES FROM CULTURE TO CULTURE. How then can they be recognized? How did the ancients know that Baal, Osiris, Saturn, etc were all the same deity? BY THEIR ASSOCIATIONS.

EVERY pagan would INSTANTLY know which deity was being worshipped (regardless of name) if you told them you worship a dying god of immortality born at the winter solstice represented by evergreen trees, whose temples are adorned with obelisks, and whose main day of worship is the first day of the week (day of the SUN). The only thing they'd ask is "where did his temple prostitutes go?" But then they would understand, when they discovered the highly sensual, effeminate worship music led by females and soyboys so popular in his temples.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

You make it too easy.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Harry Morse, Azusa Street and Arroyo Seco participant, had Christmas programs every year at his church.

If "old time" Apostolic Pentecostals had no problem with celebrating Christmas, neither should we.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

So truth is now measured by whether or not Harry Morse approved?

Get outta here, youre just trolling us now.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Google does not back up this assertion that it was illegal until 1836.
It was not a holiday until 1836 when Alabama made it a state holiday.
And it was not a federal holiday until 1870.
However, it was not illegal in all parts of the US before 1836.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Your google results differ from mine.

"This ban on Christmas, becoming law in many places, lasted until the apparently progressive state of Alabama was the first US state to legalise Christmas in 1836, meaning there was almost 200 years during which it was criminal to celebrate Christmas in the US. Oklahoma became the very last state to make Christmas legal again in 1907 despite the US making it a federal holiday in 1870." https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/judit...b_2350974.html

Numerous other results provide more insight to the fact that Christmas in America was largely unknown to most of the population as any kind of celebratory day until after the War (1860s). Northern marketing combined with Reconstruction propaganda spread "Christmas cheer" across the nation as an intended means of helping solidify a sense of national unity.

See here:https://www.historytoday.com/penne-r...entury-america

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

We are not to learn the way of the heathen, because their customs are vain. They are dismayed at the signs of the heaven, and we therefore should NOT be dismayed at the signs of the heaven. They cut trees out of the forest, deck them with silver and gold, and fasten it so that it stands upright, And therefore neither should we.

The Christmas custom of cutting a tree (or going to the tree lot and picking your tree), putting it in a stand in your living room, decorating it (especially with silver and gold tinsel and hanging balls), is a hold-over from the old days of pagan idolatry.

Why are present piled up at the foot of the tree? Because offerings were piled up at the base of an idol as an act of worship.

Consider Halloween (Samhain): The ancient idolatry involved putting a jack o-lantern with a candle inside out on your doorstep, or some variation thereof, in order to ward off evil spirits. Food offerings were left on the table or on the doorstep to placate the spirits of the dead and the demons who were believed to roam about that night, otherwise those spirits would bring trouble and vex your household.

The modern Halloween custom of jack o'lanterns, people dressing up (usually with a demonic or ghoulish costume) and going around "trick or treating" demanding a treat, otherwise they will paper your house or play some kind of trick on you, blah blah blah... all that is pagan idolatrous customs continuing into the modern era.

Christmas is no different.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Most people recognize the modern Halloween customs are MIMICS of ancient pagan customs, and conclude Christians should not do those things, we should not IMITATE HEATHEN RELIGIOUS CUSTOMS. Yet, for some reason, they fail to be consistent, and give Christmas a pass.

The only arguments being made in support of Christmas are these:

1. We do it for Jesus, so it's okay. Well then, so is "All Souls' Day". So is genuflecting before statues and icons of saints. So is praying to dead saints, or to angels.

2. We aren't LITERALLY doing EXACTLY what the pagans did, so it's okay. Well then, so is "All Souls' Day". So is genuflecting before statues and icons of saints. So is praying to dead saints, or to angels.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

I know this thread is about paganism in Christmas, but it makes me wonder about paganism in our culture in general, in entertainment, music, government, ideology, psychiatry, on and on.

The church is the only bastion against the paganism of our culture/society.

One example that concerns me is a family member who is an Osmond fan, goes to Osmond concerts and buy all of their products. I wonder if God considers this idolatry.
Then after wondering about that, I have to extend the thought to supporting trinitarians in their ministries, after which my head starts to explode and I start thinking I really don't want to go there.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Again, to say Christmas was "illegal" in the "U.S." makes it sound like Federal law banned it. Thanks for setting the record straight.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Most of those were only one step removed from the Trinity also, do we use that as an excuse also?

This is weak man, stay in the Book and you will be better.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

If early Oneness Pentecostals celebrated Christmas, so can I.

Merry Christmas to all :)

And hair length proper, right?

Paul says meat offered to idols could be eaten under certain circumstances, which explains the whole issue.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Exactly.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Well, looks like y'all got it all sewed up then. :thumbsup

The same could be said of you and your stated beliefs. Can you explain why Paul says meat offered to idols was only meat and could be eaten?

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

This thread contains detailed presentation of the claim and supporting arguments. The other side simply asserts opinion with no scripture.

If you wish to make an actual argument, then make an actual claim, and then walk us through the scriptures showing that your claim is correct.

I simply said there is a principle that refers to pagan elements, and asked if you were aware of it in Paul's writings, and take it from there. I meant nothing else about it.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

People have been known to make detailed, lengthy arguments based on a faulty premise.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

1Co 8:8.. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse...

Paul said that meat offered to idols is ONLY MEAT if one understands there is really only one God, and meat offered to idols is offered to non-existent gods. And since it's ONLY MEAT, then eat it. But if it offends your conscience, because you've got a weak conscience, then you must refrain. Same as Christmas. If your heart knows the reality that there are no other actual gods, and it's ONLY giving gifts and decorating a tree, then it's innocent. It matters what's in the heart when one does it. God does not judge you for idolatry if your heart acknowledged no false god and you gave gifts and decorated a tree with no intentions of idolatry whatsoever.

Rom 14:14.. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean...
Rom 14:15.. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died...

Rom 14:22.. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth...

1Co 8:4.. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one...
1Co 8:5.. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)..
1Co 8:6.. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him...
1Co 8:7.. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled...
1Co 8:8.. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse...

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Where does this leave participating in helloween?

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Same thing, when I was a kid coming up in the church we used to always, go trick or treating. Even the pastors kids, but as I grew up and more people came into the church that did not agree with trick or treating the church started to have what we called harvest parties so as not to offend those that thought evil of it.

As my old pastor used to teach, you can make anything a sin is you want to. It is what is in the heart that matters.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

1. Your line of reasoning allows for veneration of statues and icons of saints. Such veneration is called "worship of idols" unless the statues are Christian saints, then it is claimed to be done in honor to God, a matter of "what is in the heart."

2. Your reasoning allows for veneration of crosses and crucifixes. Bowing down to wooden statues is idolatry when done by pagans, but when the wooden statue or emblem is repurposed to represent Christ, it is okay, because "your heart acknowledged no false god."

3. Paul gives more information on the very subject under discussion in 1 Cor 10:

1 Corinthians 10:18-22 KJV (18) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? (19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? (20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. (21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. (22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

The apostle declared that participating in religious customs puts you in fellowship with the GOD SERVED BY THOSE RITES. The heathen customs are DEMONIC. Participation in heathen religious customs puts you in fellowship with DEMONS. Christians CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. You cannot partake both of the Lord's table, and the table of demons. to put it simply, if you partake of the table of demons, you are cut off from the Lord's table. You cut off your fellowship with Christ.

4. Paul also addressed the issue of eating things sacrificed unto idols in that same chapter:

25
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26
For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.
27
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof:
29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?
30
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

If there is no overt idolatry associated with a piece of food sold in the market, then don't sweat it. If you order Chinese takeout don't fret about whether or not the cook burned some incense and made an offering to Buddha over your meal. However, and this is key, if it is pointed out that paganism is definitely involved, then DO NOT EAT. Why? To avoid even the appearance of countenancing and supporting idolatry.

5. Food sold in a market, and actual rituals of idolatry, are two very different things. A pine tree, even a tree sold at a Christmas tree lot, is just a tree. Just like "Christmas lights" are just stringed lights. Nothing wrong in and of themselves. But observing a pagan holy day, and replicating pagan ACTS OF WORSHIP (idolatrous rituals), using said tree or lights, is a whole nother matter. There is far more to Christmas than a random tree and a random decorating of said tree. It occurs on a particular day, on a yearly basis, for particular (religious) reasons. It is NOT just about home decor.

Suppose one bought food sold in the market place, and replicated the act of offering it in sacrifice to Zeus, as much as possible, so that it was DISTINCTLY the rite of Zeus, but simply said "Jesus" instead of Zeus, would Paul approve of that? Hardly.

6. The Law clearly forbids the replication and adaptation of pagan religious customs to the worship of Jehovah:

Deuteronomy 12:30-32 KJV (30) Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. (31) Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

It is expressly forbidden to worship God using pagan rites and customs!

Thou shalt not do SO - meaning "in that manner". What manner? Enquiring after the pagan religious customs, as to how they worshipped their demon gods.

Thou shalt not do so UNTO THE LORD - you shall NOT take pagan religious customs and ADAPT THEM TO THE WORSHIP OF THE TRUE GOD. It is EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN. Repurposing pagan holy days, and ceremonies, to the worship of God, is SIN.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Exodus 31:13 KJV Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 13:6-10 KJV Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD. (7) Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters. (8) And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. (9) And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt. (10) Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.

Holy Days and religious festivals are a sign, or token, of which god you really worship. If you are keeping the holy days of ancient pagan demons, THAT'S WHO YOU ARE WORSHIPPING. If you have been baptised into Christ, and yet you keep the holy days of satan, you are committing SPIRITUAL FORNICATION, HARLOTRY, and ADULTERY against your Saviour.

The Sabbaths of God were to be FOR A SIGN "upon the hand and ... between the eyes" (forehead) of God's people. It was a mark of ownership, covenant, fealty, loyalty, and belonging.

What do you think the following verses are referring to?

Revelation 13:16-17 KJV (16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: (17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9-11 KJV And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The beast institutes false worship among the nations, and causes them to be marked in the hand and the forehead. John is seeing in vision a spiritual reality concerning the world and its inhabitants. Just as God has a "mark" on His people, in their foreheads and their hands, so does the beast, satan's earthly power and influence. Just as God's mark includes His Holy Sabbaths, the beast's mark includes his "holy days". Holy days, or religious festivals, repeating observances of set times, observed in commemoration of religious ideas and concepts, intended to pass on religious ideas from one generation to the next, are part of the MARK, either of God... or of satan.

People do not understand the significance of a religious calendar in God's eyes. Part of the mark of ownership that God has with His people are the Divine Appointments. Those recurring holy days tell a Story, and recognizing them tells what Story you support and adhere to and are a part of.

Pagans likewise have their own "appointments", the pagan holy days. They, too, tell a story. And observing them tells which story you are part of. Dec 25 is one of those pagan holy days, observance of which identifies you with its story, the story of Baal, Nimrod, Saturn, Osiris, Mithra.

People attempt to excuse their paganism by switching the name of the god involved. Celebrating the calendar of Baal/Mithra, with the rituals of Baal/Mithra, while calling him "Jesus", doesn't cut it.

If God is pleased with your Christ's Mass celebrations, then you owe every trinitarian a hearty apology.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Ho Ho Ho

Merry Christmas :)

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

The video I posted seems to cast doubt on much of your reasoning. I'd like your input on it.

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Merry Christmas :tease

Re: Christmas is pagan
 

Zechariah 2:6
Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord;


What are the chances....