Originally Posted by bkstokes (Post 500342)

Do you deny that we have a conscience? I know you do not. God judges these people and can rightly do so because He has given them a conscience. Those nations practiced child sacrifice.

An analogy is only as strong as how well it corresponds to the object of comparison. A pack of wolves = Conscience NAAAAAHHHHHHH! :happydance

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes (Post 500381)

I don't deny that we have a conscience. But I think neither can you deny that our values and mores are strongly influenced by what we are taught in our formative years. And if all you hear from the time of your birth is that sacrificing children in the fire is a holy and righteous thing...well that kind of propaganda takes a toll.

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes (Post 498125)

Oh, Rico, Rico, Rico....

Mostly I say it is jest (you know me...all sarcastic and flippant all the time). As I obviously don't consider myself to be a heathen or backslidden, or deceived or a hopeless reprobate or a rank sinner...etc. etc.

However, I am fully aware that by the standards of most of the posters here, I am all those things. We could take a poll, but I doubt anyone would want to openly vote me into hell ;)

So let's just skip the personal aspect of it, and look to the issues....

I don't believe that the Bible is inspired, the Word of God, or authoritative.

I don't believe that you have to baptized, and if you are, I don't believe that it matters how its done.

I don't attend church, I have no desire to do so, and I don't have a lot of positive thoughts about churches in general.

I don't (think) that I believe in hell. The jury is still out on this one. If there is a hell, I think it's purpose is similar to how Crakjak believes.

I don't think that homosexuality is a sin. Nor do I believe is sex outside of marriage. ( I do believe that sex outside of a committed relationship is bad. )

I don't beleive that God cares a whole lot about many of the things we are so uptight about.

I'm not sure what I think about the whole salvation or justification thing.

I don't believe that the evidence of receiving the spirit is speaking in tongues. (but I do believe that speaking in tongues is a real experience)


That is just some of the don'ts...here are the only things I can say that I do believe:

I do believe in God/Jesus

I do believe that He wants to be in relationship/communion/communication with us.

I do belive that it is through being filled with his spirit that this is possible.

I do believe that we can act in ways that hinder that relationship ("sin")


Now I am not ashamed of what I believe, what I am still questioning, or what I just flat out don't know. But I was Apostolic for 8 years, and have been on these forums for almost 5. I know what Apostolics believe. and I have a pretty good idea of where my place is with them.

But I'm OK with that. I don't expect them to tip-toe around me. I know what they believe, and I am OK with them being vocal about it. It wouldn't bother me in the least if anyone on this forum told me that they think I am decieved and on my way to an eternal hell, because I know that's what they believe.

Does it bother you more that I call myself a heathn? Or that I am flippant and seemingly unconcered about it?

Originally Posted by bkstokes (Post 500414)

Even when all of society teaches something that is wrong our consciences are still there as a witness. Examples of this can be seen throughout secular literature (e.g. 1984). Your line of thinking states that the conscience is pragmatic. In other words, if it works then it is true. The history of human beings speaks another story. Many times when our conscience speaks to us, it is very impractical. Thus, many times we ignore it and go on with the sin. Nevertheless, this does not change the fact that it is there.

Apart from this:
Even when my heart condemns me, God is greater than my heart and he knows all things.

Originally Posted by Michlow (Post 500433)

(I switched user names, so don't be confused ;) )

I am not saying that there are not times when our conscience is stronger than our conditioning. (And for the record 1984 is one of my favorite books, and I have read it many times!). I am simply stating that its not always black and white.

I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult. I was raised in a non-religious home. There were many moral things that I were taught. But there are many things that I was NOT taught were wrong, that many Christians would disagree with.

There WERE some things that my conscience spoke to me about, but many others that it did not.

For example my Father and my Uncle tended to be quite bigoted, and a bit racist. That was something my conscience always told me was wrong.

However, it was quite common in my family to cuss, including using Jesus' name as a swear word. (Using in combination with a couple 4 letter words).
As I grew into a teenager, I picked up on that little habit, and my conscience never said a thing about it. Who was Jesus? He was nobody to me.

It wasn't until I became a Christian that I became convicted about that. And is the one cuss word that I still don't use (other than that, I cuss like a sailor).

My point? Yes, your conscience CAN speak to you, but it doesn't always. Like God, it seems a bit capricious at times.

Originally Posted by Theresa (Post 500429)

so Mich....does this mean you discount your entire experience while being "apostolic" and believing differently?

What was it then? were you just brainwashed, were your "experiences" not real? I dont understand how you can think the Bible isnt the inspired word of God and Homosexuality isnt a sin? Can you not see the progression of your own beliefs over the last 3 years?

Do you not see that your progression is exactly as described in scripture?

I dont discount that you had a bad experience while "in the church" and you were subject to some over the top "ministry" and exposed to things that are just not right...BUT, that doesnt change the truths...

Originally Posted by Theresa (Post 500443)

so things you were convicted about you now think are ok? Or you just dont think it matters since you are no longer convicted?

How about just maybe you feel what you want to feel with regard to conviction? Perhaps you put too much stock in your "feelings" and discount what you know to be truth based on what you WANT to believe...


who knows, I've just seen a progression in your thoughts and beliefs and find it hard to believe you came to these conclusions by some "enlightment". I think you were burned by an ultra con church and this is the result.

I do wish you peace, a real peace and hope you find what it is God really has for you, and not this thinking you currently adhere to.....

God is so much more than the ultra con mess you came from, or the thinking you have about Him now.

Originally Posted by DerrickS (Post 500406)

Greg Boyd has some really interesting posts on the issue of war and violence in the old testament. Here is a link to one of them, but you can browse his blog archives for more discussions on the topic.

http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2008/04...testament.html