Apostolic Friends Forum - Can Women Pastor ?

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Re: God does not "call" contrary to His Word......

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 805555)

"BRETHREN,be not many TEACHERS, ....."

The early church, as defined in the Bible [not Catholic "church" councils], did not even consider women in the place of a minister. No more than they considered Jesus to be the "2nd person in the trinity."

I think your position needs to consider the many women used in the operation of spiritual gifts in the Body. As AQP said, you don't have to be a primary leader in the church to preach or teach.

Re: Not hardly.............

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 856101)

You need to explain Paul's several explicit prohibitions. What do they mean to you?

I only see two apparent contradictions by Paul.

one is 1 Corinthians 14 where I think Paul is quoting something back to them that they were using from the oral law/traditions and he then refutes it.

the other is 1 Timothy 2 which I think refers to a home or husband and wife situation and not to a public assembly.

That is my opinion.

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 807100)

I'm for biblical order, but God has used and will continue to use women for His work, and that is just a fact. To state that women are excluded from the ministry is obviously an extra-biblical interpretation.

Are there women who are overly masculine, strident or out of place? Sure. Maybe they weren't truly called, and just thought they were. Are there WAY more men who should have been saints instead of preachers, and spend their lives being lords over God's heritage? Yes.

It's a matter of lining up priorities, knowing the voice of God, living right to the best of your knowledge and ability, and let others heed the call without your interference.

I'm generally suspicious of men who get all panicky about a woman expounding scriptures. It really is bothersome that ANY Christian, male or female, would want to stop any OTHER Christian, male or female, from sharing their thoughts about God and His Word. Furthermore, caution is thrown to the wind, and there is a disregard for the fact that God can speak through ANY vessel He chooses.

Women should attend their biblically laid out roles of husband, home and children first and foremost, but that doesn't mean God will not call any woman to something in addition to that. Especially single women. And a woman who was called as a single girl doesn't lose that calling when she marries, anymore than a man does when HE marries; the dynamics may change, but the calling is still the same.

I know many more men who neglect their families and God-given male roles in deference to their ministerial calling than I do women. IMO, men should be teaching other men how to be good husbands and fathers, and let the older women teach the younger women how to be feminine and godly. Men have a full time job pleasing God, their wives, and their children; there is absolutely zero time for them to pick on women who have made sacrifices to serve God to the best of their ability.

So tell us what you really think :)

No.. really. What of the multiple references by Paul? Women can minister in spiritual gifts, but what about authority and teaching/leading men?

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer (Post 807393)

Ok you want this you are going to get it. Lets start with the fact that if scripture seems to contradict its self then you have the wrong interpretation. There is a reason Paul says to rightly divide the word. Just because you think it means one thing does not make it so!!! So you realy think I would dismiss God's Breathed Scripture lightly? God forbid, but I have learned that we MUST put scripture into the era of time it was written to have the true meaning. You think Im silly, Bro I don't know how old you are but I have been in this my whole life, I have seen more people come and go than you can beleive. I have been in all types of UPCI Churches from the very liberal to the very conservitive. I say all of this so you understand I know where you are comming from, I have studied both ideas.

Now let me take these one at a time. First the word Preacher (pastor, elder, decon, bishop, etc) I am not going to go into all the Greek words you can check that out for yourself. If one will truely search scripture without the influince of man made doctrines you will see Gods word in its true light.
First nowhere in scripture do we find any one man given the authority that man has given the office of pastor. Hebrews 13:17 does not give the authority that man has given the office of pastor. The word "obey" is a differant Greek word than "children obey their Parents". In Hebrews the word "obey" means "to be persuaded", also them is plural "them that have the leadership" God never intended for one man to rule the church.

I Corinthians 12, and Ephesians 4 both confirm this. When we understand this we find that any leadership position in the church would never put a women in a position where she has authority over a man because we are all equals in the eyes of God.

So what was Paul speaking about in I Timothy 2? First he is speaking about how we are to present ourself to the world. This is not in the church setting, this is in home setting. Where the world will see us in true life. verse 11 does not mean a women cannot speak only that she learn with a open frame of mind with a spirit of subordination to (her own husband). verse 12 But I suffer not .... a women to teach. NEVER? read Titus 2:1-5 One other thing Paul said "I suffer not" this was his teaching . What God puts into effect who can argue? If a women cannot teach or preach this is a direct contradiction to Acts 2:17-18, where women shall prophesy, (prophecy is to speak out a measage from God.) (prophecy is to speak unto men to edifcation, exhortation, and comfort. I Cor.14:3)

I Corinthians 14:34-35, we have already determined in preceding verses that a women can be used of God in the church setting. So what is Paul speaking of here in verse 34 & 35? First he is speaking concerning things being done in order during the move of God. Although we can understand better by what Paul is refering to by understanding verse 33. God is not the author of confusion. But of peace in the church. So if there is a subject of contention. Then the women are to hold their peace for they are to be subject to their husband. Therefore let the men handle the contention in the church and let the women confer with their husband in the home, as to keep the confusion at bay in the church.

This does not keep a women from holding the office of pastor. For if the proper biblical leadership is in place in the church then a women can be a pastor/teacher in the church. You see the position of pastor as we know it is not the biblical structure of leadership in the church. It is to be composed of the full ministry. The local church is to be composed of (elders, bishops, decons) plural, their job is to exhort and convince the gainsayers. I Titus 1:7.

I put this together to give you a differant look. I know this will most likely not change the way you see things at this time. But if I am right God will in time reveal to you his true understanding for truth will prevail.

Interesting interpretations.

Not sure how right they are. 1 Timothy is a home setting not public worship? The entire chapter is concerning public worship. How did you arrive to your emphatic conclusion?

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam (Post 856098)

It is my understanding that that passage, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is a quote that some in the Corinthian church had used taken from the Jewish oral law/tradition that said a woman could not speak in the synagogue/assembly, and they were trying to keep women silent in church. Paul quotes it back to them and then says, "What?" and goes on to say "are you giving me the Word or am I giving you the Word?" In other words, are you the apostle? or are you the ones speaking by inspiration? Then he goes on to say that if anyone is spiritual let him acknowledge that what I am writing is from the Lord. Then he goes on and instructs them (both women and men) to covet to prophesy and don't try to hinder them from speaking with tongues (as long as it is within the guidelines that he had given).

Interesting. So you believe he is quoting something in the correspondence from the Corinthians (a question or statement). I suppose that's a theory to throw out there as well. In the wording I don't see anything to support that though.

Re: Not hardly.............

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam (Post 856104)

1 Timothy 2 is all concerning public worship. This is the same chapter that he tells them not to come to worship parading their wealth and social status over their poorer brothers (don't make church a fashion show). Why do you believe 1 Tim 2 to be a home setting as opposed to a public worship setting? Does anything give that indication. It seems Timothy was giving instruction to the church, for worship as a church.

Your other theory about 1 Cor 14 is interesting. Again, I'm not sure how that is supported from the Text that he is quoting one of their own questions. His follow-up may have been a corrective (the "what") to make sure they understood he was still egalitarian when it came to spiritual gifts in the church.

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 856111)

It could be considered a theory.

Paul addresses issues in the assembly at Corinth based on reports he had heard and in response to what they or someone in the church had written to him. What we call chapter 7 starts off as a response to something they had sent to him. Chapter 8 reads as though it is a response to something they had sent to him. In chapter 9 where he defends his apostleship it sounds like he is responding to something that had either been said about him or to him. In chapters 12, 13, and 14 he addresses order and apparent misuse of spiritual gifts. It is my understanding that in what we call verses 34 and 35 of chapter 14, Paul quotes something back to them that they had quoted to him. "Let your women keep silence in the congregations for it is not permitted unto them to speak but they are commanded to be under obedience." He then references the law. What law?

The Old Testament did not forbid women to speak in an assembly. In Numbers 27 the daughters of Zelophehad came to the door of the tabernacle and addressed Moses and the elders. They were not shushed but heard. There is no mention there that they were to told to be silent.

Miriam is spoken of as a co-leader along with Moses and Aaron in Micah 6:4, and it is recorded that she prophesied in Exodus 15.

Deborah was a judge/pastor in Israel during the time of the judges.

Other women who were prophets in the Old Testament or under the Law were:
Huldah in 2 Kings 22:14
Noadiah in Nehemiah 6:14
Isaiah's wife in Isaiah 8:3

The Jewish oral/traditional law contained words like what Paul quoted in 1 Corinthians 14. Some even said it was better for the law to be burnt than for a woman to handle it.

It is my understanding that Paul was quoting back to them what they had previously quoted to him and then went on in the following verses to establish that he (Paul) was the authority and that his word (what he had said about women prophesying) outweighed their words quoted from oral tradition.

And, yes, this could be considered a theory. I'm certainly not going to say authoritatively what Paul meant. All we can do is look at the documents that have come down to us (as our Bible) and try to understand them based on their context i.e. customs, practices, situations at the time they were written.

Re: Not hardly.............

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 856112)

1 Timothy chapter 2 could (again, this is my opinion) be referencing home/domestic situations and the husband/wife situation similar to 1 Peter chapter 3. The prayer for secular leadership; the exhortation for holy hands upraised could refer to living out your religion in your home; the moderate apparel; the man/woman order; the reference to childbearing; could all refer to a home situation.

Again, I'm not arguing, just giving my opinion.

Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Sam, re 1 Tim 2, I'm not sure how many NT scholars see this letter addressing private home matters. Respectfully, the issue of modest apparel alone seems more concerned with what is going on in public.

BTW, David Norris of UGST wrote a convincing article in the latest Forward. He agrees with you, but cites different explanations.

I read David Norris's article....poor scholarship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 856125)

Since there's really nothing of any substance to respond to in these posts, just speculation [not Scripture], I'll just make a few brief points.

I read David Norris's article & could not believe the sloppy scholarship, w/ virtually zero biblical support [since there is none regarding women preacher's]. My wife, who is not a scholar, quickly picked out his errors. I wrote a critique of the article out to the side.

The reason I've quit responding is that I've said the same thing over & over, & just get the same ol' responses. It's like telling someone that 2 + 2 = 4 & they just keep saying, 5!

I've repeatedly pointed out that I Tim. was explicitly written, "so that you may know how to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church...." I mean, how much plainer can it possibly get????? Yet, ya'll persisit that it talking about the supposed "home life"? This is intellectual dishonesty.

Regarding I Cor. 14:34-35, Daniel Wallace [who is probably the greatest Greek scholar of our day, and a tenacious textual critic] affirms that this passage is accurate & belongs in the canon, as do virtually all reputable textual critics. How could the Corinthian's be quoting from a Jewish source/Talmud w/ "Let your women keep silent IN THE CHURCH.....", when "the church" did not even exist at the time of the writing of the Talmud?????

Rom. 16 & the supposed "deaconess" is not a direct translation from the Greek [since this is merely on of several meanings], but rather a theological interpretaion.. Indeed, most translations render this term simply as "servant". It's the same Greek word as the "servants" who filled the waterpots for Christ, so now are we to somehow assume that they were "preachers"????? This is swatting at shadows in order to validate a preconceived agenda.

Moreover, I've given lexical definitions of prophesy in I Cor. 11, & demonstrated that prophesy is absolutely NOT a sermon the Scriptures. And, we NEVER once see it used as such in Scripture. But rather, it's literal/primary definition is "to foretell" as seen in Strong's, etc. "To speak BY INSPIRATION" [indicating spontaneity as opposed to a premeditated sermon], is a secondary definition only applicable in certain contexts. Will not just sit here & repeat myself ad nauseum.

And, I've NEVER even alluded to a bldg. as being the church....since I do not believe that, and I've already pointed that out. In sum, I maintain the biblical position against the notion of "women preachers," along w/ the great Apostle Paul. I pray that you will get honest w/ Scripture, since this is what will judge you in eternity. Blessings....................