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Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1374060)

Read the Bible and tell me if it's okay to sue a brother. It's not a rule the UPC made, or one that I made. Both Jesus and Paul taught and wrote against it. You say you're on the side of right, not wrong. If this is true, then you cannot possibly support this lawsuit against another believer.

Even if the Bible wasn't clearly against it, I would still say a believer shouldn't take another believer to court over internal church discipline as a matter of allowing a precedent to be set. Again, I doubt the court will rule in this man's favor because of prior court rulings refusing to get involved with internal church disputes. But should a court choose to ignore that, and get involved in an internal dispute, it will be a bad precedent.

I do agree one should value facts and evidence over one's word.

As a man who grew up in the home of a Pastor, and who has served under several Pastors, I will say the decision to disfellowship or excommunicate someone is not taken lightly. Especially if the person has been in the church for a while and has friends and roots in the church. In the cases I've known, the Biblical pattern for disputes was followed, and only after the person refused was he/she removed from fellowship. Removal was always a last resort, and only because of continued discord.

Again, there has been no proof or evidence provided against the Pastor which would show he was wrong for kicking the man out of the church.

The proof will appear in court

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1374075)

Your example here doesn't apply because no law was broken. This is about an angry ex parishioner who is suing a Pastor for being excommunicated. In THIS case, the courts have no business interfering in the free exercise of the internal church discipline.

A court previously ruled that exact point. The First Amendment does not allow the courts to interfere with non lawbreaking lawsuits like this.

A law was broken apparently. It was employing kids and not paying them.

The case does not seem to be about excommunication but slanderous statements. And Pastors are just as liable for slander as anyone else can be

http://www.churchlawandtax.com/cltr/...efamation.html

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

King James Bible

I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1374119)

The problem is, there isn't a wise man among them who can judge. Pastors are a protected class that are never wrong.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1374120)

The problem is, there isn't a wise man among them who can judge. Pastors are a protected class that are never wrong.

Maybe that isn't a church, then? Just a profitable "non profit" masquerading as a church?

In any event, Paul rebuked the Corinthians for suing each other before secular courts instead of EITHER bringing it before the church OR suffering themselves to be wronged.

Apparently it is a WORSE evil to sue a fellow believer than to suffer to be wronged, according to the apostle.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1374031)

As exampled by His treatment of Judas and dinners / fellowship with sinners? "To Be Like Jesus...." You're probably right.

Please share that teaching. I must have skipped sunday school that day lol

Hope you are not referring to dusting feet and leaving town after rejected ministry. Doing nothing to someone and walking away is not quite the same thing as assassinating them after you kick them (except in PACEs)

Has anyone ever been rightly ejected from masjid?

Anyway, here is Christ's teaching:

Matthew 18

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Here Jesus clearly taught excommunication under certain conditions. He also taught we are to as forgiving and longsuffering as He is. But it is undeniable that he does here teach what is called excommunication from the assembly.

As for Judas, God's opinion of him is recorded in Psalm 109. Note: He had not become eligible for excommunication until he betrayed Christ. And he himself left the assembly before any church discipline could be effected. Not even sure what bearing Judas has on the topic.

As for Jesus dining with sinners, Jesus ate with people, and taught them, and healed them, and warned them to repent and sin no more, and to believe the gospel. What does that have to do with excommunication? Excommunication is the cutting off of fellowship by the assembly, whereby the assembly puts out of its midst an unrepentant disobedient member. It is not applicable to and has nothing to do with outsiders with whom we interact. Not seeing your point?

As for dusting off the feet, again that has to do with outsiders. If a town rejects the message of the gospel of the kingdom of God those sent to that town are to leave it and move on. This too has nothing to do with excommunication.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Excommunication in action:

1 Corinthians Chapter 5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

This why I attend a UPC but I won't try to get a license or anything. I think the Org is too political, too much nepotism and too much elitism

There should be a special board that investigates wrong doing. It should be easy to "come before the brothers" with one's complaint.

There needs to be second seats too to recuse someone in case they are friends with the minister

But even that won't fly as in many American churches, certain ministers really do have a rock star status and are untouchable

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Whatever happened to "come out"? Seems to have fallen by the wayside these days.

As long as people accept the status quo, the status quo is what will be available.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati

Ok let's try to take this all in.
This church is under no board, is not affiliated and has no authority overseeing it. He says that's not biblical. He has "trusted advisors" aka friends he talks to.
So the brother brings grievance to pastor about pastor how do you think that went down? So now this man's wife gets ahold of labor department they investigate and find that pastors where scamming the system. If the kids had to work for the school bill that is sad because the church took up offerings every Thursday for the poor kids to attend. Plus they worked those kids 60 hours a week so that more than paid per week for a month of school. So private company makes profit of the backs of children and church takes in money for children. Those are facts people. Pastor finds out and "thinks" man called labor dept. accuses him in one of 3 private meetings and kicks him out after morning service but says wife can stay. Hmmm. She makes a lot of money. He is on ssi due to work related neck injury and the church wanted that as well. Part of the issue. Pastor then has evening service, waits till it is over, brings out all his personal stuff to include the note pad from counseling room, and goes on about him by name stating facts and dates of meetings. Remember he is no longer a member for over 8 hours. All the info the pastor said in no way the man told anyone. How would you tell anyone your personal home stuff. That was a lie from an apologist of the church. As well as sueing 3 times. He has not to this time sued people. His wife is blessed with a great job and income. Jealous apologist just by reading it. The pastor insured all recording was stopped before the blasting and had ushers check people's phones for recording. BTW some people did record. Can't hide the truth if it is recorded. So a question here.... Why couldn't a preacher just say "Mr. Goings has been booted so don't fellowship him"? Would that not be scriptural enough or is telling all about a person the scriptural aspect here? I don't read it in scripture unless you want to take a wide latitude with the word MARK them. Even with all that Mr. Goings tried to not sue. He issued a letter asking the pastor to take back all that was said that night and let it be. The bull headed pastor said pound sand title 9 is our bible. But in legal gargon printed by lawyers. So he decided to sue based on research he got from prior case.
So to say the church is protected by internal issues that is not so. It is not hard to find case law on this one. Most of you might think I'm am pastor bashing. That's not so. I appriciat what the men of God do. But I also know that being faithful goes both ways. And when I saw the lies these men told it was enough. These are all facts. I have a recording I have the file of the investigation. If this man had been stirring up strife I would have told him to stop myself. This is a bigger issue than Mr. Goings. These men have bigger issues coming as well.
Jesus taught that people are to be brought BEFORE THE CHURCH not just the pastor. Because this is what happens. If the church would have been involved the pastor would have been found out long ago. This issue effected me in a big sad way. I feel that Church is about the money and the anointed ones in the special circles of the church. My heart yurns to be there In church but I can't. I'm a broken vessel with a jaded heart from this situation. I loved that pastor I loved that man but to read the lies and hear the words spoken that night hurts deep. It's sad really. Please pray for me. All I say is true I will be in court testifying to it under oath. There is never a reason to lie but always a reason to be truthful. At least I can sleep at night knowing I didn't destroy anyone's life.