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-   -   The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=33580)

Ferd 02-05-2011 08:10 PM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 1026044)
That's cool. We had a great Christmas Open House Sale again, raised over 22K on a Friday evening, and six hours of Saturday. Coventry is growing, plan on breaking ground on next building phase midyear.
That is so cool. I have to get back over there

crakjak 02-06-2011 09:02 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 1025647)
This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott
Bump for Socialite!

crakjak 02-06-2011 09:02 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 1025833)
I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.
Bump for Mr. M&M

crakjak 02-08-2011 05:10 PM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 1025833)
I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.
Bump for Mastermind and Socialite????

Socialite 02-09-2011 10:52 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 1025647)
This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott
Crakjak, I appreciate your perspective on this, and even the quote by Talbott, but it still falls short IMO.

The idea of "eternal life" in contrast to "eternal/everlasting death" is everywhere in the NT. Yes, the point of the parable is to provoke others to good works, but it also rebukes the Pharisees and those who claimed to be followers of Jesus but did not bear good fruit.

Socialite 02-09-2011 10:56 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 1025833)
I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.
James 2
Quote:
"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble."
In verse 19, James makes an interesting point in bringing in the idea of Satan and his demons. In it, he's basically saying "mental ascent" is not faith, and faith without works is dead faith. So theorizing that there is a God won't work, and as evidence he shows Satan and his demons -- who we know are unsaved. They are reprobate, and already once judged in history. Satan will be bound up again, the scrutiny of the world ("is this the one that made the nations tremble?"). That there will be redemption and restoration of all creation someday is a point I agree with.

Socialite 02-09-2011 11:00 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
We want a God who is like us. We want Him to do what we want. We want a God that we can form and shape. When that doesn't work, some hide behind the clouds of doubt, cynicism and fear, hoping to escape the reality of a God who Calls us to believe in Him and follow after Him.

Because we want our God like us, we call His desire for our trust "narcissistic." Yet, it's hard to see a narcissistic God come in flesh, to the position of a Jew, poor and in a manger, and die an agonizing death, mocked up until even his last breath. "For God so loved the world that he gave..."

When we make God like us, we are idolaters. No different than the Persians, Medes and Babylonians. If the story doesn't seem fair, we say it can't be right. We want to do what we feel and believe is right. This is idolatry. We presume to take over the divine prerogative.

Socialite 02-23-2011 11:46 PM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Love Tim Keller's words here:

Quote:
The doctrine of hell is crucial—without it we can’t understand our complete dependence on God, the character and danger of even the smallest sins, and the true scope of the costly love of Jesus. Nevertheless, it is possible to stress the doctrine of hell in unwise ways. Many, for fear of doctrinal compromise, want to put all the emphasis on God’s active judgment, and none on the self-chosen character of hell. Ironically, as we have seen, this unBiblical imbalance often makes it less of a deterrent to non-believers rather than more of one. And some can preach hell in such a way that people reform their lives only out of a self-interested fear of avoiding consequences, not out of love and loyalty to the one who embraced and experienced hell in our place. The distinction between those two motives is all-important. The first creates a moralist, the second a born-again believer.
I will admit, however, that Keller's exegesis here leaves you wanting, but his homily is hearty :)

Anyone read NT Wright's Surprised by Hope?

crakjak 02-24-2011 07:53 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1028887)
James 2

In verse 19, James makes an interesting point in bringing in the idea of Satan and his demons. In it, he's basically saying "mental ascent" is not faith, and faith without works is dead faith. So theorizing that there is a God won't work, and as evidence he shows Satan and his demons -- who we know are unsaved. They are reprobate, and already once judged in history. Satan will be bound up again, the scrutiny of the world ("is this the one that made the nations tremble?"). That there will be redemption and restoration of all creation someday is a point I agree with.



But do you believe, with scripture, that creation and all that is in it, will be saved?

Yes, the demons "tremble", but this verse is no proof-text for your point. They "tremble" because it is a "fearful thing" to fall into the hands of the living God. Why? Because HE is a refining fire!!!

crakjak 02-24-2011 08:03 AM
Re: The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1028890)
We want a God who is like us. We want Him to do what we want. We want a God that we can form and shape. When that doesn't work, some hide behind the clouds of doubt, cynicism and fear, hoping to escape the reality of a God who Calls us to believe in Him and follow after Him.

Because we want our God like us, we call His desire for our trust "narcissistic." Yet, it's hard to see a narcissistic God come in flesh, to the position of a Jew, poor and in a manger, and die an agonizing death, mocked up until even his last breath. "For God so loved the world that he gave..."

When we make God like us, we are idolaters. No different than the Persians, Medes and Babylonians. If the story doesn't seem fair, we say it can't be right. We want to do what we feel and believe is right. This is idolatry. We presume to take over the divine prerogative.
I'll refute the accusation that in believing UR, that we "want a God like us".

Question: How does man respond to offense???? He wants to destroy, hence the war and conflict in the earth. Just like the ED doctrine of god!

How does God respond? He comes and pays our debt, suffers and dies for us in the form of a man. He turns the other cheek, and absorbs the hit, forgives when are were yet sinners. This is the true God, and fits perfectly with the UR doctrine.

Final Question: WHO? Makes god like us? UR'S OR ED'S?

My friend, this tired old argument fails, dramatically!!


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