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-   -   UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit! (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30783)

Praxeas 07-13-2010 12:59 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938930)
Truth is a always a defense. If the facts are accurate, no fear.

Now I don't know that there are a lot of situations where one should go before the church but I can see where it could happen.
Baron if the Pastor simply just said to the congregation that she was with another man wearing a bikini, alone and that according to how the church defines fornication, there was just cause for a divorce and for him to remarry, would she still have a case against him?

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 12:59 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenThinkin (Post 938922)
I have a couple of questions. Maybe I should post on a different thread. But here goes.

When, in this day and time, (a litigious society) should a pastor expose someone before the congregation?

Even in this case, ..... Matthew 18:15* ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16* But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17* And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican..... it may be a stretch! May be out of context.

Does anyone on AFF suggest that public exposure is wise in this time in which we live? If, because of the time in which we live, we do not do what Matt 18 states are we guilty of violation of scripture?

Also, where does the pastor determine scripturally that all nine things listed constitute fornication?

Just wondering....

Been Thinkin
First of all, the scripture in question isn't exclusively referring to a pastor making an indiscretion or offense public. This is for anyone who has a problem with another Christian.

Secondly, I would think the only really wise time to reveal things like this to the congregation would be:

1. In extreme circumstances, when there's no way to avoid apprising the church of the situation.

2. Before a select group of people(saints & elders)--not at a regular church service where sinners and visitors could be present.

IMO, if the pastor had been specific to the charge of "exhibitionism", he might have gotten away with it. It could have been argued that the church felt wearing a bikini was immodest and therefore the wife's actions fell into the category of exhibitionism. However, I think he was purposely vague because it's the most insignificant accusation from a moral standpoint. He had to leave it open ended, or else someone would have been saying, "But wait...that's not REALLY fornication." :coffee2

Praxeas 07-13-2010 01:00 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938931)
If you had the facts wrong and later publicly apologized when you realized that, could you still be sued for slander?
Maybe if you had her sign a legal contract not to. But it seems that publicly apologizing is a confession and thus any trial would be a slam dunk against him

MrsMcD 07-13-2010 01:06 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938858)
Cindy, he didn't make the public statement until 3 months after the divorce was final. The daughter and husband were married another 4 months after that.

I'm sure his daughter being interested in the ex had everything to do with him making a public statement. I can imagine my father feeling the need to do the same thing, although hopefully with a bit more wisdom in regard to the details. Actually, I can see my Dad fumbling it even worse. :blink

The implication here is that the marriage was conveniently helped to its dissolution so that the daughter and ex-husband could pursue their already formed romantic relationship. I don't feel that is a fair assessment.
I can not imagine my father feeling the need to do the same. In fact, I know he wouldn't because we know the pastor involved very well and we discussed this situation a few days ago. The pastor had no reason to be discussing this girl period. She wasn't his saint. The girl's pastor (which I know very well) stood behind her.

MrsMcD 07-13-2010 01:08 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allstate1 (Post 938807)
I dont believe a pastor should ever point out a person involved in sin from the pulpit!! Can you imagine if there was a visitor there?
Yes, I can imagine. We had young man get a girl pregnant and the pastor at the time called this young man to the front to expose his sin. I was mortified that a pastor would do such a thing.

jfrog 07-13-2010 01:09 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938934)
Maybe if you had her sign a legal contract not to. But it seems that publicly apologizing is a confession and thus any trial would be a slam dunk against him
Well, that explains one legit reason as to why the pastor may have chosen not to apologize.

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 01:09 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938938)
I can not imagine my father feeling the need to do the same. In fact, I know he wouldn't because we know the pastor involved very well and we discussed this situation a few days ago. The pastor had no reason to be discussing this girl period. She wasn't his saint. The girl's pastor (which I know very well) stood behind her.
I can imagine any pastor who teaches that divorce and remarriage is a sin except in the case of fornication feeling the need to make a public statement when he learns his daughter is interested in dating a divorced man.

I agree that it was a bad judgment call on the part of the pastor. I'm just saying that I understand the mindset, and I can see a pastor feeling the need to justify giving his approval in such a situation.

pelathais 07-13-2010 01:09 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938916)
I agree. So he threw the ex-wife's reputation under the bus to facilitate the scriptural legality of the new relationship.
And it was entirely unnecessary. If any gossip had complained about the new bloom of romance a simple "pastor's discretion" would have sufficed.

I think the problem is that we're dealing with an environment where all such past issues were meet with the harshest of condemnations. That history can certainly lead to a very real "need" to justify oneself and one's family.

If our shared culture didn't have such a harsh past that it was constantly seeking to justify, we wouldn't have these problems today.

drummerboy_dave 07-13-2010 01:12 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938929)
?what implication?
see #106... seems I am slow to respond, you've already discussed it.

BTW frog, would you mind discussing the thought of post #26 and #32. You can PM to me if you want.

MrsMcD 07-13-2010 01:12 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938877)
I think the pastor should have never talked about the lady in church, period. In private would have been much better. I think it harmed him and his family, also.
You are correct Cindy this situation has harmed him, his family, and his church.

Baron1710 07-13-2010 01:16 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938931)
If you had the facts wrong and later publicly apologized when you realized that, could you still be sued for slander?
Under the commonlaw the answer is no.

Retraction - unless made immediately after publication so as to negate the defamatory effect of a statement, retraction does not undo the wrong. But it may be considered by the court to show lack of actual malice in mitigation of damage. (Barbri on Torts)

pelathais 07-13-2010 01:16 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938932)
Baron if the Pastor simply just said to the congregation that she was with another man wearing a bikini, alone and that according to how the church defines fornication, there was just cause for a divorce and for him to remarry, would she still have a case against him?
To come right out and say that the man she was "with" was wearing a bikini opens a whole 'nother can of worms and a mental picture that I am very uncomfortable with.

Praxeas 07-13-2010 01:18 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 938948)
To come right out and say that the man she was "with" was wearing a bikini opens a whole 'nother can of worms and a mental picture that I am very uncomfortable with.
rofl

allstate1 07-13-2010 01:18 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938900)
Possibly. I find it strange that no one mentions the cause for their divorce.
Or who filed!!

Baron1710 07-13-2010 01:21 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938932)
Baron if the Pastor simply just said to the congregation that she was with another man wearing a bikini, alone and that according to how the church defines fornication, there was just cause for a divorce and for him to remarry, would she still have a case against him?
If those facts were true, I don't think they would be able to go forward with their complaint.

Praxeas 07-13-2010 01:24 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938951)
If those facts were true, I don't think they would be able to go forward with their complaint.
That's what I thought.

drummerboy_dave 07-13-2010 01:24 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938932)
Baron if the Pastor simply just said to the congregation that she was with another man wearing a bikini, alone and that according to how the church defines fornication, there was just cause for a divorce and for him to remarry, would she still have a case against him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938951)
If those facts were true, I don't think they would be able to go forward with their complaint.
Simple is better, isn't it?

James Griffin 07-13-2010 01:26 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
My friend Baron must learn the sacred words:

"It depends"

There certain circumstances and even jurisdictions where you can be successfully sued and not really having told a lie, example - the false light doctrine.

Which is a quasi-defamation tort action.

Cindy 07-13-2010 01:31 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938938)
I can not imagine my father feeling the need to do the same. In fact, I know he wouldn't because we know the pastor involved very well and we discussed this situation a few days ago. The pastor had no reason to be discussing this girl period. She wasn't his saint. The girl's pastor (which I know very well) stood behind her.
I think it would have been better for everyone if he had told HIS daughter, pick another guy. To avoid ANY impropriety.

jfrog 07-13-2010 01:31 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave (Post 938945)
see #106... seems I am slow to respond, you've already discussed it.

BTW frog, would you mind discussing the thought of post #26 and #32. You can PM to me if you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938679)
With an impending divorce... Sometime long before April the guy gave up hope of being with his wife at the time. Once that is done then emotional connections can begin to be established with other people. I would bet that such a thing happened in this situation. In other words he probably began to date or at least be very friendly/flirty with the pastors daughter before the divorce was finalized. I don't see that as wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave (Post 938688)
Wow, frog. Maybe I'm just an idealist, but marriage is supposed to be for ever. I can't imagine how people find this acceptable.
I assumed that they had began the divorce process long before any of the incidents cited. I assumed that neither party legally divorced the other for adultery. There was (probably) at least 6 months to 1 year from the start of their divorce process to the finish because of state laws.

I'm an idealist too. Marriage should last forever. But the fact is that this marriage was 6 months to a year from being over once the divorce process started. So once the man realized it was really over, once that knowledge became real to him, I would expect him to act more or less as a single man. Given the lengthy process it takes to have a divorce finalized I believe he realized his marriage was over and started to act more or less as a single man before his divorce was finalized. It was in this time period that I believe him and the pastors daughter began to grow close.

I find nothing wrong with him acting single since he was soon to have an ex-wife instead of a wife.

Praxeas 07-13-2010 01:32 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938957)
I think it would have been better for everyone if he had told HIS daughter, pick another guy. To avoid ANY impropriety.
But Daddy! I wuv him...

BTW I wonder if the guy was a preacher in the church :bigbaby

Baron1710 07-13-2010 01:34 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Griffin (Post 938956)
My friend Baron must learn the sacred words:

"It depends"

There certain circumstances and even jurisdictions where you can be successfully sued and not really having told a lie, example - the false light doctrine.

Which is a quasi-defamation tort action.
They didn't claim false light...false light generally requires actual malice and is intended to harm someone emotionally rather than damage their reputation.

Cindy 07-13-2010 01:35 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938938)
I can not imagine my father feeling the need to do the same. In fact, I know he wouldn't because we know the pastor involved very well and we discussed this situation a few days ago. The pastor had no reason to be discussing this girl period. She wasn't his saint. The girl's pastor (which I know very well) stood behind her.
OMW, she wasn't even a member of that church? WOW.

jfrog 07-13-2010 01:36 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938957)
I think it would have been better for everyone if he had told HIS daughter, pick another guy. To avoid ANY impropriety.
I'm sure he tried lol!

canam 07-13-2010 01:36 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII (Post 938635)
Moreover, Fogarty’s issues with Angela Driver were that she was not submissive and she wore clothing that he believed was immodest, including skirts above the knee, Kennedy said

Read more: http://www.macon.com/2010/07/07/1187...#ixzz0tZcjfJZz


To many in this culture not submissive = being a fornicating Jezebel witch.
Come on DA, your way out on a limb now bro .This aint like you .

MrsMcD 07-13-2010 01:37 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938957)
I think it would have been better for everyone if he had told HIS daughter, pick another guy. To avoid ANY impropriety.
Absolutely! Then the pastor wouldn't have had to justify why his daughter married someone that had been married before.

Cindy 07-13-2010 01:40 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938967)
Absolutely! Then the pastor wouldn't have had to justify why his daughter married someone that had been married before.
That may have helped her case, also.

drummerboy_dave 07-13-2010 01:44 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
thanks frog.

MrsMcD 07-13-2010 01:45 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938970)
That may have helped her case, also.
Yeah, I just don't understand why the pastor felt the need to say anything. I couldn't imagine my father getting in a pulpit and telling the sins of someone else just to make a point that I had a right to marry someone that had been married before. It's no one's business but God's. That church is very legalistic though. Different Strokes for Different Folks...

Praxeas 07-13-2010 01:46 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by canam (Post 938965)
Come on DA, your way out on a limb now bro .This aint like you .
It ain't like him to quote the news article? Who are you Mr 1 Post I know everything about DA?

James Griffin 07-13-2010 01:46 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938961)
They didn't claim false light...false light generally requires actual malice and is intended to harm someone emotionally rather than damage their reputation.
In THIS case they did not, in answering general questions it should be pointed out in some jurisdictions it is possible.

There is no doubt he had malice, and the point being it does not always require an overt lie to be successfully sued. :-)

jfrog 07-13-2010 01:47 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Griffin (Post 938977)
In THIS case they did not, in answering general questions it should be pointed out in some jurisdictions it is possible.

There is no doubt he had malice, and the point being it does not always require an overt lie to be successfully sued. :-)
May I have an example?

Praxeas 07-13-2010 01:48 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Griffin (Post 938977)
In THIS case they did not, in answering general questions it should be pointed out in some jurisdictions it is possible.

There is no doubt he had malice, and the point being it does not always require an overt lie to be successfully sued. :-)
Was his intent to be done with malice or was the act just malicious no matter how you sliced it? It seems his intent was to justify his daughter marrying this man

Baron1710 07-13-2010 01:49 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Griffin (Post 938977)
In THIS case they did not, in answering general questions it should be pointed out in some jurisdictions it is possible.

There is no doubt he had malice, and the point being it does not always require an overt lie to be successfully sued. :-)
Correct.

drummerboy_dave 07-13-2010 02:01 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938976)
It ain't like him to quote the news article? Who are you Mr 1 Post I know everything about DA?
hahaha......prolly just your standard, brainwashed guy. :bigbaby

Ferd 07-13-2010 02:03 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938938)
I can not imagine my father feeling the need to do the same. In fact, I know he wouldn't because we know the pastor involved very well and we discussed this situation a few days ago. The pastor had no reason to be discussing this girl period. She wasn't his saint. The girl's pastor (which I know very well) stood behind her.
my biggest worry in all this was the impact this had on the ladies relationship with God.

If I am not reading too much in here, she is still going to church?

allstate1 07-13-2010 02:06 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 938984)
my biggest worry in all this was the impact this had on the ladies relationship with God.

If I am not reading too much in here, she is still going to church?
And would it be appropriate for her to pay tithes on her settlement???!

drummerboy_dave 07-13-2010 02:07 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 938984)
my biggest worry in all this was the impact this had on the ladies relationship with God.

If I am not reading too much in here, she is still going to church?
:foottap how could she have a relationship with God, she wears bikinis <gasp!>

James Griffin 07-13-2010 02:08 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938978)
May I have an example?
Plenty of cases I could cite, but that would make for some mighty boring reading.

Here is an excerpt from an article:

Public disclosure of private facts occurs when a writer discloses private and embarrassing facts about a living person that are not of "public concern." First Amendment rights protect publication of items of legitimate pubic concern, such as the details of a crime. Ask yourself, is the story newsworthy? If so, the public's interest in knowing about the incident outweighs the privacy factor. If, however, the matter is not one of public concern, and is one that most people would find highly offensive, there is an invasion of privacy. For example, publicizing the fact that your brother-in-law has failed to pay his mortgage for three months, although true, would be an invasion of his privacy. Other examples would be details of a person's sexual problems, physical or mental ailments. Problems often arise when writing about a real-life event: in such cases, you should obtain written releases from the "ordinary people" who are only peripherally involved with the newsworthy event.

While this article addresses the new area of false light when publishing it still is a valid principle in some states. Which is why I am a great proponent of "it depends".

For example, the present case was made worse by the pastor's obvious personal interest, if there were an overwhelming need to state something publicly like warning parents of a known child molester it would probably be ok, because it would be lacking the malicious element. On the other hand'- "it depends" :thumbsup

canam 07-13-2010 02:11 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938976)
It ain't like him to quote the news article? Who are you Mr 1 Post I know everything about DA?
calm down, prax you know me, i have more than one acct now for good reasons.pm coming.


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