Originally Posted by Theresa (Post 324256)

maybe we would...maybe we wouldnt...

but just maybe we could put a stop to this mess...

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324250)

Where does this stop though? If you only bought anything from non-sinning Christians, you'd probably be hurting for a few things.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324263)

How are we to know? Ask them? They certainly won't admit it.

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324262)

Perhaps, but my point is where do you buy your groceries, your clothes, restaurants, etc. Sin is sin.

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324267)

That's part of my point.

Originally Posted by Theresa (Post 324276)

oh I understand...

I really do....

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324278)

Goes back to what I've been saying. Does the H.G. move in this mess, or is is a spirit of confusion and deception. Darkness masquerading as light? How can the H.G. feel comfortable or even move with such rampant sin. It defies the entire word of God.

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324262)

Perhaps, but my point is where do you buy your groceries, your clothes, restaurants, etc. Sin is sin.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324285)

Well, were not worshipping and claiming the grocery store is the house of God. I think there is a huge difference when sin is outside the house or blatantly defies God's house, the platform and all those who put their trust in these men.

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324283)

Always has confused me too. It's been explained to me that a calling on someone's life never leaves them and they are a vessel being used by God is why a move of God can take place.

One of the best evangelist I've ever known was later found out to be gay. It didn't stop many souls from being filled with the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324294)

I don't know. I'm beginning to think it's not the H.G. I would ask how many of those souls actually stayed or still claim their experience.

I don't buy into that God moves regardless of men and their sin. Some things belong to God and some things belong to men. The H.G. has a particular fruit attached. Galatians 5 is very clear as to what is the fruit of the Spirit and the flesh.

I have come to the conclusion that much of what is perpetrated as a move of God is nothing more than the flesh. This is the problem with modern pentecost. Too much garbage mixed in. It's been full of confusion, insanity, turmoil, instability, intimidation, guilt, etc. All that belongs to Satan, and does not belong to God.

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324250)

Where does this stop though? If you only bought anything from non-sinning Christians, you'd probably be hurting for a few things.

Originally Posted by Esther (Post 324252)

It is an abomination in my opinion!

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324299)

No, it was real. Yes, those souls are still saved. It was over 35 years ago when being gay wasn't vouge.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324294)

I don't know. I'm beginning to think it's not the H.G. I would ask how many of those souls actually stayed or still claim their experience.

I don't buy into that God moves regardless of men and their sin. Some things belong to God and some things belong to men. The H.G. has a particular fruit attached. Galatians 5 is very clear as to what is the fruit of the Spirit and the flesh.

I have come to the conclusion that much of what is perpetrated as a move of God is nothing more than the flesh. This is the problem with modern pentecost. Too much garbage mixed in. It's been full of confusion, insanity, turmoil, instability, intimidation, guilt, etc. All that belongs to Satan, and does not belong to God.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324294)

I don't know. I'm beginning to think it's not the H.G. I would ask how many of those souls actually stayed or still claim their experience.

I don't buy into that God moves regardless of men and their sin. Some things belong to God and some things belong to men. The H.G. has a particular fruit attached. Galatians 5 is very clear as to what is the fruit of the Spirit and the flesh.

I have come to the conclusion that much of what is perpetrated as a move of God is nothing more than the flesh. This is the problem with modern pentecost. Too much garbage mixed in. It's been full of confusion, insanity, turmoil, instability, intimidation, guilt, etc. All that belongs to Satan, and does not belong to God.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324307)

I'm not doubting you. I was in stockton during the Richard Heard days and saw thousands speak in tongues and hardly any stay around.

Originally Posted by Jeanie (Post 324313)

I agree with this.

But I think the problem starts with the top, leaders can not be afraid of removing a talented whatever out of their position. There was a time when men didn't care who they lost if the music wasn't so so-

My mother in law often reminds me of how LW was removed from Stockton when Clyde J. Haney was pastor.

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW (Post 324318)

THis is probably because these souls weren't discipled... they weren't taught and grounded...
I was in Richard's crusades as well, up here in Canada.

I have found that the ones who come to church and are taught home Bible studies and time is taken to lead them, they are the ones who become grounded and stay firm.

It's not that God didn't really give them His Spirit. It's that the Church didn't do it's job.

Originally Posted by SoCaliUPC (Post 324322)

Care to share?? Details? :santathumb

Originally Posted by Jeanie (Post 324328)

:jolly

Let's jut put it this way, CJH and LW didnt jell.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324336)

I was under the impression KH was pastor. He was kicked out of WABC because of homosexual activity and yes many did know it. Including TLC or at least the allegations.

Originally Posted by Jeanie (Post 324327)

I totally agree with you as far as discipleship is concerned, I was saved around the time of R.Heard in the early 80's and was discipled right away.

But I think the point that ss is making that often time when people are scared into salvation they leave church as soon as they are not scared anymore-

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW (Post 324350)

this is true... no love for the truth, just fear. They really need to be taught.

We also saw this happen during the Gulf War.

Originally Posted by staysharp (Post 324040)

Amazing. I'm blown away.

Originally Posted by Jeanie (Post 324349)

I dont know if there were any rumors of homosexual activity regarding LW while he was in Stockton, the way my MIL puts it, was because he was effeminate. But I dont know how true that is, only that it is true that CJH gave LW the boot.

Originally Posted by Thad (Post 324538)

This same person was kicked out of Gateway when his wife discovered certain kind of pics and reading material

Originally Posted by Jeanie (Post 324548)

And this guy was allowed to minister for how long in other places? Gee I guess talent just blinds people.

Originally Posted by Thad (Post 324552)

There was stuff that went on for years at the next and final place but I understand that nothing was done simply because the person in Qs had the goods on a lot of others would have aired all the dirty laundry if exposed.

Originally Posted by PastorD (Post 324780)

Down boy....

That there is a big statement Thad. I hope you are ready for a fire storm!

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn (Post 328760)

A few comments (well rather observations). As an African American male, I grew up in the gospel arena in New York City. Homosexuality is prevalent in the church circle (but so is babies being had out of wedlock, divorce, thievery, deception and all other forms of sins). In our congregations, the majority of black churches don’t have programs that will help someone come out of homosexuality. Its a don’t ask don’t tell environment and its sad. Families are broken up, people are ran away from the church hurt and scared with no place to turn. Our preachers at times don’t take a stance for the "other sins" that will keep an individual out of heaven. We will tell you to stop smoking, stop drinking, stop partying but we wont tell you not to lie on your taxes. We wont tell you to not harbor ill thoughts towards the person sitting next to you. We dance and shout in our church’s over mess and people leave the same way they came in. Just an emotional high at times. Oh, we can play the mess out of a Hammond B3 organ, our church choirs will sing you into a frenzy, we dress up and all appear to look like we have thousands in the bank when in all honesty, the majority is just one pay check away from homelessness. Our leaders are lacking in so many different areas. Look at hypertension (high blood pressure) no one wants to tell grandma to stop eating all that pork and cooking with all that fat back. In a few years, grandma is going to be dead of a heart attack and what will we do, dance and shout and her casket and say what a wonderful like she lived before the Lord when in actuality if we were properly trained by leadership, grandma could still be alive working for the master. Homosexuality (both male and female) is so rampant in our churches that at times, I wonder if the gay club has taken a bus and dropped everyone off at the front of the church to go in and yes live a double life.

Understand this, the church is a hospital for the sin sick soul, so we should not turn any one away. However, we can not have secret and open sins lived out in front of the lives of the local congregants. Its not ok. I will say this, the African American church has a lot to learn. We cannot keep building our churches based on the gifts and callings on peoples lives. Instead, we must promote change when one comes into the house of God. I can say that no one is pulling the homosexuals aside to tell them that there is A MORE EXCELLENT WAY to live. Instead, when a family is broken up or when someone gets HIV/aids, or a baby out of wedlock is about to be born, that’s when we decide to preach how awful the individual is. The bible says we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. The sheep is one of the dumbest animals in the animal kingdom and they need a shepherd to guide them otherwise they WILL go astray! Its my prayer that all of our churches become holistic ministries that will cater to changing the lives of sinners and equipping the body of Christ with leaders that will lead others to the cross. Remember, yes, its an abomination but as long as there is life, there is hope, because there is LIFE IN JESUS! Jesus is the good shepherd and we should follow his example. If your struggle is NOT homosexuality, find out a way to lead a homosexual into true deliverance. If your struggle is not fornication or adultery, take it upon yourself to see to it that you yourself minister to that person for the Bible says, with Loving Kindness have I drawn them (not thrown them away). YES its a sin but YES we the delivered have a responsibility to snatch souls out of the burning hell that a lot of people are on their way to. I encourage you, you and you to stand up and make a difference as I myself endeavor to do the same. FOR ALL HAVE SINNED and come short! Going forward, lets strive to be like the good shepherd and lead people towards that path of truth and holiness!

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 324283)

Always has confused me too. It's been explained to me that a calling on someone's life never leaves them and they are a vessel being used by God is why a move of God can take place.

One of the best evangelist I've ever known was later found out to be gay. It didn't stop many souls from being filled with the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 328798)

The verse we often hear quoted about the gifts and calling of God being without repentance has been twisted out of context so many times it is a shame.

The context of that verse is God's covenant promises to Israel. It does NOT teach that a person can live in any kind of sin forever and remain functionary in their gifting from God.

Good things happen to people who hear and respond in faith to the preached Word, because God's Word is truth.

Signs confirm the Word, not the man preaching it.