Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

You're confused.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Yes. And also 1 Cor 15.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Rather the truth has become so rare people dont recognize it for what it is.:highfive

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Everything has a form but not everything is a body

A coffee cup has the form of a coffee cup but it is not someone's body

They never said there was a permanent body...you are arguing a strawman

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

No, why don't you explain to us how it is Arianism modified.

Start by telling us what you think Arianism is, then explain what modified Arianism is, then tell us how what he said is "modified Arianism"

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I'm really surprised that Apostolics are even having this discussion. I guess some folks haven't made up their own mind what they believe. However, a discussion like this is good in terms of either drawing someone who isn't sure closer to the truth, driving them further from the truth, or solidifying what their own perception of the truth may be.

Either way...I guess this topic does need to be discussed.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Trins love to use this scripture to prove the eternal son doctrine.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col. 1:12-17

While it does say the Son is Creator it also explains who the Son actually was at creation. The image of the invisible God. This is the same thing as the Logos. The Son pre existed as THE LOGOS.

The other scripture that says the Son is Creator contains the same explanation:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb. 1:1-3

Note that Paul explains that the Son is the brightness of HIS glory and the express image of HIS person. So again Paul does say the Son was Creator but lets us know in what way the Son existed as Creator. As his visible image. Not another distinct person as an eternal son.

It is by the understanding of THE LOGOS doctrine that Oneness can defend its position against Trinitarianism. Without it we must admit that the Son existed from eternity as another person from the Father, close up shop and go home.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

And what is your view?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

:spit

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

If the Son did not yet exist how did God make the worlds by the Son?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

President Bush was the Govenor of Texas was he the President while he was the Govenor of Texas?:thumbsup

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I'm sure you think there's some great insight in this post but I guess it's over my head :/

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

It is correct the president was also the govenor but he was not the president when he was govenor. He who was the Son created all things but He was not the Son when He created all things. Very simple. Glad I could help.:thumbsup

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

O.o

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Bush didn't govern through Bush while being Bush. Bush was Bush, one entity. He was not one entity who thought he governed through another entity.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Someone was the Son at creation.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
God spoke the World into existance.
God is the same as his Word.

Jesus was the express representation of God manifested in the flesh so we could behold his glory.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I agree Jesus was an express representation of God manifested in the flesh. Jesus Christ existed separately and distinctly from His God and Father though.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

You cannot be separate from your word. It’s impossible.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Amen.:highfive

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I see. I have one problem though... the scripture doesn't say "he who was the son created all things" or even "God created the worlds by he who was the son"... it says "God created the worlds by the Son". It explicitly says that the Son was involved in creation and not simply that he who was the Son was involved in creation. I hope you can see the difference I am gettin at.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

But that means the person known as George Bush DID exist. He just was not the President yet...so that actually goes against your view that the Son did not exist. It supports my view that the Son did exist as God (not as the Son)

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

But, who'd say that President Bush did such and such for Texas? It'd be a ref. to George Bush as governor did such and such for Texas.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

If God is eternal, existing in every second in time at once,... the Son was eternally with God... even if the Son was also born in a given moment in time according to our perception of time and reality.

Remember... God sees things that are not as though they are. God is not bound by the present. Past, present, future are all NOW to God. God is eternally transcendent of time itself. Even the angels are bound by time... but God isn't. God's already beholding us seated with Christ in Heavenly places... and it is yet to be.

So I'd have to say that yes, the Son pre-existed the incarnation with relation to God's eternality. However, the Son was also born in time in accordance to our temporal reality.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

John begins his Christological view NOT with Father and Son but Logos and Ho Theos..word and God. It was only after the Logos was made flesh that John introduces Father and Son

So God created "by" the Son when God created by the Logos.

How did God create by the Son anyways? Did God command the Son to create then sit back and watch? That would make God NOT the Creator but the Son

Who spoke "Let there be light"? God or the Son?

Who created man in His own image? God or Son?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Why does that mean the Son was Eternally with God? It's not true just because you said so

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

God beheld and experienced the crucifixion before the world began. The Son was always with God... yet one could also say that the Son didn't exist prior to the incarnation.

We can't chain God to our perception and logic. God transcends time. There isn't past, present, and future with relation to God. There is ony an eternal "NOWness" before God.

Do you believe that God is bound by time Prax? Or does God transcend time... time being something that was created by God with relation to the perception of us being temporal creatures who are not eternal in nature?

The point is... there isn't any such thing as "time" when considering God's nature. God speaks into time and acts in time when relating to "us". Because we are temporal, time bound, beings.

A man, bound by time, can say that the Son didn't exist until he was born in a manger.
But God, who transcends time itself, can say that He has been beholding the babe in the manager from eternity past. God, who transcends time itself, can say that He beheld the glory of His Son's crucifixion from eternity past. God, who transcends time itself, can say that His Son existed in glory, seated with Him, from eternity past.

But to us who are trapped in time... we can't see it or experience it as He can.

So has the Son always existed with God? YES.
Was the Son "begotten" in a given moment in time? YES.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

True but in defense of his analogy I can say "President Bush governed Texas for 4 years"...does that mean Bush was the President AT the time he governed Texas? No. But we can refer to him NOW as President in referenced to things he did or was before being President

Same goes for the Son...the bible calls Him Son rightly because Son He is. If He was NOT the Son when He created that does not mean we can't still call Him "Son" now in reference to what He did or was before becoming Son

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

God bends human logic into a gelatinous foolishness. Trying to comprehend God will drive one insane. A gnat cannot begin to comprehend the rings of Saturn, let alone the spiral arms of the Mikly Way... but he'd be closer at trying to comprehend it than we are when attempting to comprehend the eternal. Because God is both the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last. The Lion and the Lamb. All at once. God is the God who WAS... the God who IS... and the God who always WILL BE.... right now!

Do we dare bind God by our silly stop watches and calendars??? Who are we to define Him by time... when time itself is something He created?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Did you know that God can have one hand in the present, one hand in the past, and be gazing at events yet to come as though they are a living reality before Him... and shape reality into whatseover He desires?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

So stop this silliness about the Son. Yes, the Son has always been with God. And yes... the Son was begotten in a given moment in time. Both are absolutely correct. Because we are dealing with Him who is the eternal stepping into time.

Prax, and all, God beheld your faces and loved you... before He said, "Let there be light!"

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Sorry to flip tables guys.... but this argument is downright silly when one considers God's eternality.

When our elders said that the Son existed "in the mind of God" before time began... they didn't mean that Jesus was merely a thought, an imaginary figment in God's mind that was going to be. They meant that the Son actually EXISTED as a living reality in the mind of God (meaning from the perception of the eternal) from eternity.

We are dealing with transcendence beyond our comprehension here. A transcendence that makes the deepest of theological opinions sound like kindergarten nursery rhymes. Man knows NOTHING about God. Only the Spirit itself can search the deeper things of God, revealing them to a man. As I have walked in the Spirit I have seen how all of history exists in a single nano-second before God... and yet that nano-second is infinitely expanded before God at the same time in that past, present, and future are before Him, void of the meaning we have attached to them.

A Trinitarian sees one dimension of this and makes a claim to ultimate truth.
A Oneness believer sees one dimension of this and makes a claim to ultimate truth.

And God laughs at them both!

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

He beheld it? How does that make the Son existing with the Father? That sounds more like the Logos in the mind of God idea
God also beheld us we can say, does that make us all Eternally existing with God'?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

All that means is God Eternally exists and transcends time. That says something about God. that does not say something about the Son's existence

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

God stood with the Son on the Mount of Transfiguration from eternity past Prax....though to us it was an event that would only one day happen in time. There is no such thing as time when dealing with the internal apsects of God's nature. God isn't bound by time as you and I perceive it.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Oh ye of little faith. God LIVES in every second that ever was and will be NOW. Therefore from an eternal perspective God has, and will always... exist in union with the Son.

First, God is bigger than the Logos garbage. God laughs at Logos theology too.

And yes... we are all eternally existing before God. God knew you before time began Prax... not as a seer or psychic who peers down through time to see you... but as one who existentially beholds you as a present reality before Him. As with Jeremiah... God knew him and ordained him a prophet to the nations before he was born.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

And Prax... even as we speak... to God... YOU are seated with Christ in Heavenly places. Time is merely the revelatory unfolding of God's reality as perceived by temporal beings. To God... it's all before Him... and it's all behind Him.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I must agree.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I agree

That is why we can say God is the same yesterday, today, and forever......and since this is the case, we can also say God exists in the past, present, and future.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

He existed but NOT as President Jesus existed NOT as Son but as God.