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-   -   UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit! (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30783)

Baron1710 07-13-2010 12:31 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
She denied the statement as being untrue, that she had not committed adultery.

The truth is always a defense against slander, if the pastor could have proven that the statements he made were true, or even that he had not acted recklessly with what he thought was true he could have beat this complaint. The pastor should resign, this is a disgraceful act.

Ferd 07-13-2010 12:31 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
seriously DA, can you shrink your pictures? you are messing up my browser!AAargh!

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 12:34 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII (Post 938879)
But because through his manipulative tactics ... it leaves the hearers to pick from these heinous act which adds to the grievous nature of the slander ....
Which is why the lawsuit was justified. It was a bad play, for sure.

Baron1710 07-13-2010 12:34 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938880)
And I agree that it was silly to call wearing a bikini an act of fornication. My feeling is that the husband suspected more (which is why they divorced), but that the bikini *episode* was probably his only "evidence."
Or, and just as likely, the husband found someone else and was looking for a way out.

DAII 07-13-2010 12:35 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938886)
Or, and just as likely, the husband found someone else and was looking for a way out.
More to support that inference than anything else.

OnTheFritz 07-13-2010 12:36 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938877)
I think the pastor should have never talked about the lady in church, period. In private would have been much better. I think it harmed him and his family, also.
Agreed. And feeling the need to justify his daughter's interest in this man is the root of the issue. The fact that he obviously condoned the relationship should have been enough to answer the congregation's concerns without dragging this other lady into it. And if anyone had questions, they could have been handled one on one.

Ferd 07-13-2010 12:36 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938881)
She denied the statement as being untrue, that she had not committed adultery.

The truth is always a defense against slander, if the pastor could have proven that the statements he made were true, or even that he had not acted recklessly with what he thought was true he could have beat this complaint. The pastor should resign, this is a disgraceful act.
I know you are not part of the GA Bar but will the pastor himself have to pay, or will the church?

is this kind of thing covered by the churches libility policy?

Praxeas 07-13-2010 12:36 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938878)
"[Driver's Attorney] said Angela Driver was accused in front of the congregation in effect of nine acts that ranged from bestiality to prostitution to child molestation because the pastor never named which one she actually was accused of doing."
Exactly! "accused....in effect of" is also important.

Praxeas 07-13-2010 12:36 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII (Post 938879)
But because through his manipulative tactics ... it leaves the hearers to pick from these heinous act which adds to the grievous nature of the slander ....

He was better served to say what it was at the pulpit .... than have to explain himself in court.
Dan that is what I said already.

Praxeas 07-13-2010 12:38 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938881)
She denied the statement as being untrue, that she had not committed adultery.

The truth is always a defense against slander, if the pastor could have proven that the statements he made were true, or even that he had not acted recklessly with what he thought was true he could have beat this complaint. The pastor should resign, this is a disgraceful act.
Baron, can you explain why, for religious purposes, the church is not allowed to define fornication in this case? The plaintiff's attorney, as part of the legal proceeding, seemed to make it an issue how the state defined fornication

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:40 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938875)
jfrog, the implication with this line of reasoning. I object to the innuendo as a whole, which can be taken quite far.
Divorces take time. Especially divorces where adultery can't be shown to have taken place (and apparently this was one of them). The fact is 3 months after a divorce seems very fast for an engagement. Given that finalizing a divorce can take soo long, the likely sequence of events would seem to suggest that the divorce process was moving right along. The guy and the pastors daughter started to "sense some sparks between them" while he was going through the divorce process. The divorce was finalized. They began seeing each other more. They got engaged. The pastor offered his approval in front of the whole church.

Baron1710 07-13-2010 12:41 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 938890)
I know you are not part of the GA Bar but will the pastor himself have to pay, or will the church?

is this kind of thing covered by the churches libility policy?
It depends. The church insurance may pay, or if he has an umbrella policy (a good idea for any pastor) but the insurance may try to avoid paying if they find some grounds. Not sure what GA law is for insurance but sometimes deliberate acts by an individual may preclude insurance coverage.

Jermyn Davidson 07-13-2010 12:41 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
I am glad he was convicted.

I've seen and have heard about Pastors doing things like what this guy did and it seems to be rooted in something other than love.

The Bible speaks about publicly exposing and disfellowshipping the Christian who is unrepentant and persistent in sin and from what I have read, this does not appear to be the case.

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:44 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938880)
And I agree that it was silly to call wearing a bikini an act of fornication. My feeling is that the husband suspected more (which is why they divorced), but that the bikini *episode* was probably his only "evidence."
Possibly. I find it strange that no one mentions the cause for their divorce.

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 12:45 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938895)
Divorces take time. Especially divorces where adultery can't be shown to have taken place (and apparently this was one of them). The fact is 3 months after a divorce seems very fast for an engagement. Given that finalizing a divorce can take soo long, the likely sequence of events would seem to suggest that the divorce process was moving right along. The guy and the pastors daughter started to "sense some sparks between them" while he was going through the divorce process. The divorce was finalized. They began seeing each other more. They got engaged. The pastor offered his approval in front of the whole church.
The article doesn't state that they were engaged at the time of the statement. He said at that point that they were "going to be romantically involved." e.g., dating?

My parents met and dated for only a couple of months before they married. Lots of couples have quick romances. Not my cup of tea, but it does happen.

Cindy 07-13-2010 12:45 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Did I misread, or was there mention of an audio recording of the church service in which the accusations took place?

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:46 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938886)
Or, and just as likely, the husband found someone else and was looking for a way out.
Or just as likely is the divorce was initiated before any involvment with the pastors daughter and without the husband expecting his wife was cheating on him with that man.

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 12:46 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 938903)
Did I misread, or was there mention of an audio recording of the church service in which the accusations took place?
Yes, they taped the services, and so there was a recording of the statement.

DAII 07-13-2010 12:46 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938894)
Baron, can you explain why, for religious purposes, the church is not allowed to define fornication in this case? The plaintiff's attorney, as part of the legal proceeding, seemed to make it an issue how the state defined fornication
The state has to define adultery with certain parameters or they could go with Jesus' definition of just thinking it ... and we could try to prosecute against thought bubbles.

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:47 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938902)
The article doesn't state that they were engaged at the time of the statement. He said at that point that they were "going to be romantically involved." e.g., dating?

My parents met and dated for only a couple of months before they married. Lots of couples have quick romances. Not my cup of tea, but it does happen.
So from the time of engagement to marriage was less than 4 months.... WOW!

Baron1710 07-13-2010 12:47 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 938894)
Baron, can you explain why, for religious purposes, the church is not allowed to define fornication in this case? The plaintiff's attorney, as part of the legal proceeding, seemed to make it an issue how the state defined fornication
The church would be able to define fornication, however it appears that even under his definition there were no facts to support his claims, thus truth was not used as a defense.

I think the fact that he deliberately defined it so widely and left the congregation to imagine the worst was a huge mistake.

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 12:47 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII (Post 938906)
The state has to define adultery with certain parameters or the could go with Jesus' definition of just thinking it ... and we could try to prosecute against thought bubbles.
:toofunny

I think we'd all be in jail. :D

MrsMcD 07-13-2010 12:48 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway (Post 938631)
$500,000 Awarded in Slander Lawsuit

This quote from the article is interesting:



Are the days of pastors calling out individual members of the congregation for sin over? I hope so! It's one thing to preach against sin, but it's another when you name names and can possibly ruin the reputation of someone by your public gossip in front of peers.
The pastor was looking for an excuse so his daughter could biblical marry the ex husband.

RandyWayne 07-13-2010 12:48 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 938907)
So from the time of engagement to marriage was less than 4 months.... WOW!
It was only a couple of months for us, with a few months of dating before hand. But then again we were both in our 30's already (with no prior marriages). How old are the two in question? The daughter looks like she isn't even 20 yet.

Praxeas 07-13-2010 12:48 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII (Post 938906)
The state has to define adultery with certain parameters or the could go with Jesus' definition of just thinking it ... and we could try to prosecute against thought bubbles.
But isn't that strictly for legalities? I mean she was not charged with fornication or adultery under the state law. Why can't a church define for itself, for it's own purposes, what fornication is?

Baron1710 07-13-2010 12:49 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAII (Post 938906)
The state has to define adultery with certain parameters or the could go with Jesus' definition of just thinking it ... and we could try to prosecute against thought bubbles.
The state defines it for their purposes, a $15 crime in MD. But the church can define it for its purpose.

Cindy 07-13-2010 12:49 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938902)
The article doesn't state that they were engaged at the time of the statement. He said at that point that they were "going to be romantically involved." e.g., dating?

My parents met and dated for only a couple of months before they married. Lots of couples have quick romances. Not my cup of tea, but it does happen.
Yes, I agree with this. The whole problem would have been avoided had the pastor's daughter chose someone else, or not get involved with a divorced man.

DAII 07-13-2010 12:49 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938909)
:toofunny

I think we'd all be in jail. :D
Yep.

MissBrattified 07-13-2010 12:50 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938910)
The pastor was looking for an excuse so his daughter could biblical marry the ex husband.
I agree. So he threw the ex-wife's reputation under the bus to facilitate the scriptural legality of the new relationship.

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:50 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938909)
:toofunny

I think we'd all be in jail. :D
Thanks for the confession MissB. Now go dip your head in Holy Water once for each thought that would have put you in jail if that was the law :P jkjkjkjk

Praxeas 07-13-2010 12:50 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938908)
The church would be able to define fornication, however it appears that even under his definition there were no facts to support his claims, thus truth was not used as a defense.

I think the fact that he deliberately defined it so widely and left the congregation to imagine the worst was a huge mistake.
Definitely. In fact had he just came out and said "she was guilty of being in a bikini with the husband of a mutual friend" many members would have said "but that doesn't mean they had sexual relations"

DAII 07-13-2010 12:50 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD (Post 938910)
The pastor was looking for an excuse so his daughter could biblical marry the ex husband.
You live/lived in Georgia .... right?

drummerboy_dave 07-13-2010 12:51 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938858)
Cindy, he didn't make the public statement until 3 months after the divorce was final. The daughter and husband were married another 4 months after that.

I'm sure his daughter being interested in the ex had everything to do with him making a public statement. I can imagine my father feeling the need to do the same thing, although hopefully with a bit more wisdom in regard to the details. Actually, I can see my Dad fumbling it even worse. :blink

The implication here is that the marriage was conveniently helped to its dissolution so that the daughter and ex-husband could pursue their already formed romantic relationship. I don't feel that is a fair assessment.
It's very poor taste for anyone to suggest the "implication" you are stating. Doing so is speculative and gossipping. It certainly has no bearing on the case we are looking at, nor does her choice of swimwear.

The court found, while daddy was publicly justifying his daughter getting "romanticly involved" with a man who was 4 months prior, married to someone else, he just happened to publicly slander the former Mrs Driver.

An irony here is that she (the first wife) tried to make things right by seeking the apology, but daddy and his "supervisors" denied it happened. It's a good ruling in my eyes.

RandyWayne 07-13-2010 12:51 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 938909)
:toofunny

I think we'd all be in jail. :D
True, but then I have gotten in semi-arguments with others here already who felt that a true Christian can indeed live a perfect sinless life and in fact are required to do so.

BeenThinkin 07-13-2010 12:53 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
I have a couple of questions. Maybe I should post on a different thread. But here goes.

When, in this day and time, (a litigious society) should a pastor expose someone before the congregation?

Even in this case, ..... Matthew 18:15* ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16* But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17* And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican..... it may be a stretch! May be out of context.

Does anyone on AFF suggest that public exposure is wise in this time in which we live? If, because of the time in which we live, we do not do what Matt 18 states are we guilty of violation of scripture?

Also, where does the pastor determine scripturally that all nine things listed constitute fornication?

Just wondering....

Been Thinkin

Cindy 07-13-2010 12:53 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 938921)
True, but then I have gotten in semi-arguments with others here already who felt that a true Christian can indeed live a perfect sinless life and in fact are required to do so.
I have said before, I have enough problems trying to keep my heart right. I sure can't speak about someone else.

Cindy 07-13-2010 12:54 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
In the words of Jesus. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:56 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave (Post 938920)
It's very poor taste for anyone to suggest the "implication" you are stating. Doing so is speculative and gossipping. It certainly has no bearing on the case we are looking at, nor does her choice of swimwear.

The court found, while daddy was publicly justifying his daughter getting "romanticly involved" with a man who was 4 months prior, married to someone else, he just happened to publicly slander the former Mrs Driver.

An irony here is that she (the first wife) tried to make things right by seeking the apology, but daddy and his "supervisors" denied it happened. It's a good ruling in my eyes.
?what implication?

Baron1710 07-13-2010 12:57 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenThinkin (Post 938922)
I have a couple of questions. Maybe I should post on a different thread. But here goes.

When, in this day and time, (a litigious society) should a pastor expose someone before the congregation?

Even in this case, ..... Matthew 18:15* ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16* But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17* And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican..... it may be a stretch! May be out of context.

Does anyone on AFF suggest that public exposure is wise in this time in which we live? If, because of the time in which we live, we do not do what Matt 18 states are we guilty of violation of scripture?

Also, where does the pastor determine scripturally that all nine things listed constitute fornication?

Just wondering....

Been Thinkin
Truth is a always a defense. If the facts are accurate, no fear.

Now I don't know that there are a lot of situations where one should go before the church but I can see where it could happen.

jfrog 07-13-2010 12:58 PM
Re: UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 938930)
Truth is a always a defense. If the facts are accurate, no fear.

Now I don't know that there are a lot of situations where one should go before the church but I can see where it could happen.
If you had the facts wrong and later publicly apologized when you realized that, could you still be sued for slander?


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