Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1331240)

Michael, that is a great series of posts you did. However, may I rebut them? I have not put together anything to that effect, but I differ with you in some of those interpretations(which, I am sure that you are aware of). I dont think anyone actually knows exactly when Jesus will return in the Tribulation, but our opinion is of value to our message we preach to the world. Thanks

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1331241)

Its a free forum go for it. However did you READ my studies? If you actually DO you probably wont need to try to refute it because you will see the truth.

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1331245)

No I didnt, I dont have anything on paper myself, just a head full of passages and their interpretations. I used SFT all these years and got into it with mid and post trib folks from time to time, but I know where you are going and where you stand, just by reading your posts. Keep in mind, with me, it it my point of view and we are only talking about the timing of the Lords' return.

Its no big deal between us bro., but I believe my message is a greater message of hope than post trib. And I think I have enough of the scripture to confidently teach it.


I realize I am up against one of the "greats" in Irvin Baxter. I just heard him get smoked though by a trinitarian on a TV program debate recently. When I saw that, I realized this concept was still up for grabs and nobody, including myself, has it set in stone.

My rebuttal will be only to give us a different point of view if you dont mind.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1331228)

Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.