Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

"Better than the next guy"? Not me, I certainly don't feel "better" than the next guy, but I do feel thankful and blessed.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Yeah, then why are you calling people, "Backsliders"?:foottap

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Stop copping out with the Bible. In the end, you have to be the "Judge" to call someone backslid.

That makes you better than the next guy, so keep tooting your Self Righteous horn.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Sorry for your failures.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

You're not sorry for anything. You are bound by Religion.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Yes, I really am sorry for your failures. I will pray for you, my fallen brother.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

I have fallen into the truth, the truth that Christians are afraid of; that they have been swindled by a lie.

Remember, Jesus called the Religious, Blind. Religion isolates, infuriates, and creates hypocrites of the worst kind.

Religion is nothing more than the illusion that someone is better than someone else, via an idea that someone else started with Spectral Evidence.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Actually Jesus calls them born who are born only of the Spirit.

John 3:8 ...every one that is born of the Spirit.

So now you have 3 births instead of 2. You have the natural birth with 2 parts. You have the spiritual birth with 2 parts. And you have the spirit birth with 1 part...

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

After reading this and your other post, all the more reason for me to pray for a fallen brother.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

:blah:blah:blah

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Hey, I thought you had 4 births...get your story straight...LOL

BTW...I cant believe I am arguing with a frog....ribbitt...LOL

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

I figured I'd start establishing 3 and after I've done that the 4th will slide right in place.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Hmmm...so what makes you better than everyone else? :smack

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

verse 8 is explaining the "born of Spirit" in vs 5.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Prax, you can just smell the bias in his position. The word "except" is used in the passage 2 times. Verse 5 for both water and Spirit, meaning "unless", which makes Spirit optional. But the water part in their mind is NOT optional.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except(unless, optional) a man be born again(optional), he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except(unless, optional) a man be born of water(optional) and of the Spirit(optional)..(the clarification of BORN AGAIN above, ), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.




Using ambiotic fluid to replace water baptism in this passage is absolutely ridiculous....LOL


I guess those that are born of a C- section cannot be saved, because they are not born of the water...LOL

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

"Unless" does not mean optional

"Unless" actually EXCLUDES something from being optional

The word is a conditional (we learned about that in math)

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

The only "option" that I see in John 3:3-7 is be to born AGAIN or not see or enter the Kingdom. That's really not much of an "option" to me.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Prax, you are typically a level headed individual. So hear me out.

1. We know that Jesus was talking to nicodemus about a 2nd birth.

2. In John 3:8 Jesus speaks of a birth which occurs without water; "born of spirit"

3. If the 2nd birth that jesus was talking to nicodemus about included both a water and spirit portion then it makes little sense to call those born who only have the spirit portion. Yet that's exactly what Jesus called them. Ya see what I'm saying?

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Except is the word that I was referring to as "optional".(except a man is born of water.....).... optional....(except a man is born of the Spirit).....optional. Optional(Except) means... "this is your option whether or not you want to be born again" to enter into the kingdom........

An example of a common use of the word except...." If you choose to be born again I will let you into the Kingdom of God....that is the "exception" I will make for you"


"Unless" was only a synonym I used to help describe the word,"except".


You may have missed the point I made, that these guys say that being born of water is NOT optional.....everyone from birth is born of water. Then all they need is the Spirit birth. Which is their option to be saved or not.(they dont automatically have it(Spirit from birth).....hope that clarifies.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

He was merely explaining the part of "Born of the water and of the spirit" that Nicodemus did not understand

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Since Except and Unless are synonyms, neither one means "optional"

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

optional - definition

View thesaurus entry for optional
What are red words?
Using the thesaurus
ADJECTIVE British English pronunciation: optional /ˈɒpʃ(ə)nəl/

something that is optional is available or possible if you want it, but you do not have to have it or do it
The price includes hotel and meals – entertainment is optional.
Add 200 grammes of walnuts (optional).
The history course is optional, but English is compulsory.
an optional extra (=something that is available, usually for more money): Remote central locking comes as an optional extra.
Thesaurus entry for this meaning of optional




I am saying the very statement of Jesus shows the individual has a choice to be born again or not to be born again...that is their OPTION. Jesus does not twist arms or coerce anyone to be born again. (you are not automatically born of water)

Of course the end result if they dont is not being born again.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Jesus could have been explaining about aliens at the time. It doesn't take away the fact that Jesus mentioned being born again and then mentioned being born of the spirit (without water). If being born of the spirit was simply part of being born again then it makes absolutely no sense to use the word born in decribing those who have the spirit only (without water) because if you are right about what Jesus meant then those born of spirit aren't actually born yet.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

I think people should keep in mind that born again is best translated born from above. We have a natural birth, which is what Nicodemus thought Jesus was speaking of & why he brought up going back in a mother's womb (water), and a spiritual birth that come from above (spirit).

Understanding that this section of scripture is not saying water means baptism, does not negate all the scriptures that clearly show water baptism is a command and a normal part of turning to Jesus.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Sorry, Sean, but I have to ruh-roh, Prax here. He is right. :thumbsup

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Jesus is saying that "except/if not under the circumstances", you cannot "see/know" the kingdom of God.

If you are saying, which you are, a person has a choice, that is true. But, technically, the word "except" implies "exclusion".

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Sean agrees with prax an prax agrees with Sean. Being born again is optional. You don't have to so it. However if u want to go to heaven... It is a requirement for that

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

:thumbsup

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

At last!

:happydance

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Sean's comment, here, suggests that "except" in the Greek is defined as "optional". That is what, I believe, Prax was addressing.

Notice that I agree with what Sean is trying to imply, while agreeing with the technicality of definition concerning the word "except" that Prax offered.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Thats what I am saying there, Jesus was not telling Nicodemus he was already "water born", which in these guys doctrine, make it(water birth) NOT an option.
The entire passage is what I was seeing, lead off by the word "except". The passage offers a a way into the Kingdom of God, if(optional, you may or may not want to...) a man is born again of water.....That is what I was implying....

I was seeing the whole passage as optional in this regard, thanks for pointing out the
misunderstanding.

Again, sorry about the misunderstanding. And thanks Prax

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Don't get ur hopes up.. I was speaking for sean

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Awww what a disappointment. :nod

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Again I say, the necessity of water baptism as a step towards the new birth does not depend on the water/Spirit interpretation of John 3:5 being accurate. The doctrine of baptism for the remission of sins stands on its own scripturally without John 3:5.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

This is ridiculous! No one preaches physical act of speaking in tongues CAUSES salvation. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit already in a person. It's not the speaking in tongues that we want in order to be saved. It's the SPIRIT IN US. The evidence of a thing is not the the thing! And The SPIRIT is the goal, not its evidence. That write-up is simply dishonest!

And baptism is not categorized as a WORK for salvation. When the bible talks about works for salvation it is talking about efforts to make ourselves righteous, not all actions in and of themselves. If baptism is regarded as a work then so must the CHOICE to accept salvation be a work of the mind, and therefore a WORK, nonetheless, for salvation.

But baptism is the opposite of works to obtain righteousness. It is the BURYING and DEATH of all hopes of self doing anything to save self! We're good for nothing, as far as our works are concerned to save ourselves, so much so as to deserve death!

To write what this guy said about baptism and tongues is absolutely dishonest as well as wrong.

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

Amen!! :thumbsup

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

:thumbsup

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

:thumbsup

Re: Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup