Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112444)

What are your thoughts on what the verses I quoted are saying?

They say "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112389)

Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112389)

Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112476)

These are my thoughts...





Condensing it: God exists simultaneously as omnipresent, invisble and yet He exists as in a visible form, known as the WORD. The visible form of God became flesh (the Man Christ Jesus). Therefore, that Man Christ Jesus is still our LORD, which is why we must worship him.
Nonetheless, God (in the invisble, omnipresent state) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice, it says our Lord. And as Christians, we have ONLY one Lord.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
So, there's a distinction in the visible and invisble existence of God, yet, only ONE (numerically One, not unity) God.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112480)

Now we part.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112480)

Now we part.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112478)

Yes you have the revelation Bro. Keep teaching it. Over and over and over. The error of the mainline Apostolic Church needs to be fixed before they can move on.

Every time there is a debate with the Trins when they challenge the Oneness debator about the pre existence the momentum always is lost by the Oneness. The dynamic changes and the group listening comes away feeling Oneness loses.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112478)

Yes you have the revelation Bro. Keep teaching it. Over and over and over. The error of the mainline Apostolic Church needs to be fixed before they can move on.

Every time there is a debate with the Trins when they challenge the Oneness debator about the pre existence the momentum always is lost by the Oneness. The dynamic changes and the group listening comes away feeling Oneness loses.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112489)

To teach that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity is actually Arianism. Here is the question I ask all folks who believe this.
"What happened to that body at the incarnation?"

Should be simple.:thumbsup Good luck. Micheal has never been able to answer that so I am waiting?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112489)

To teach that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity is actually Arianism. Here is the question I ask all folks who believe this.
"What happened to that body at the incarnation?"

Should be simple.:thumbsup Good luck. Micheal has never been able to answer that so I am waiting?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112480)

Now we part.

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1112460)

If the Son pre-existed as GOD HIMSELF....Then He was God Himself not God the Son...How did He exist? As God Himself...the answer was right infront of you

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112526)

The form was only permanent until Bethlehem. The "body" was the Logos. The Logos became flesh.

Arians teach the Son of God was created as the begotten Son. Another individual who was not God himself. This is not what we teach. The WORD was the image of the invisible God. A form for the omnipresent one. Jesus is still the Logos but now as a man rather than the Angel of YHWH.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112493)

I don't believe that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity.

What I'm saying is that the WORD of God is the visible form of the invisible God.

This visible form of God is the EXPRESS IMAGE of God. This visible form of God is what appeared to men of old (example: Adam)

The WORD is what became flesh. So there's no question as to what happened to the body at the incarnation.


Col 1
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Tim 6
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

No man has seen the invisible God at any time. We've only seen him in his express self-revelation to us.
This is NOT Arianism.
I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the Almighty God himself.
I'm pretty sure Arians do NOT believe that.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112640)

What happened to this permanent body?

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112493)

I don't believe that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity.

What I'm saying is that the WORD of God is the visible form of the invisible God.

This visible form of God is the EXPRESS IMAGE of God. This visible form of God is what appeared to men of old (example: Adam)

The WORD is what became flesh. So there's no question as to what happened to the body at the incarnation.


Col 1
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Tim 6
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

No man has seen the invisible God at any time. We've only seen him in his express self-revelation to us.
This is NOT Arianism.
I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the Almighty God himself.
I'm pretty sure Arians do NOT believe that.

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1112644)

I'm pretty sure they are saying that body became flesh... Of course that's a relatively simple explanation since neither of them really use the term body to describe the Word.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112652)

Splain that please how did the BODY become flesh?:thumbsup

Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112660)

LOL. They shoulda said it was a temp body that vaporized.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112640)

What happened to this permanent body?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112652)

Splain that please how did the BODY become flesh?:thumbsup

Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112660)

LOL. They shoulda said it was a temp body that vaporized.

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1112665)

How did the Word become flesh??? I don't know. Scripture doesn't explain the HOW. The term body throws in too many differing conotations to be useful in this discussion so I don't think anyone really used it other than to try and talk in your language (thus Micheal's quotes around "body").

So if you insist on saying they are calling the Word a BODY then you are arguing against something they don't believe. That they tried to accomodate your language into their explanation without seeing the full implications of such should not be held against them.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112673)

I'm not sure I understand what your question is.

But based on what I think you're asking:

God appeared to men of the old testament as a man temporarily (Abraham, Jacob, etc)

He did not become one of us until the incarnation, at which time he tabernacled among us in flesh.
And now, the visible expression of the invisible God is the person of Jesus Christ.

Remember: No man hath seen God at any time, but the only begotten of the Father, he hath declared him.

Who did Paul see on his way to damascus? Was it not Jesus
Who did Steven see when he was being stoned? Was it not Jesus

The very WORD of God, who appeared visibly in the OT was made flesh in the NT.

1 Tim 6
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So I'm not exactly sure what body you guys keep referring to...

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112676)

You are backing off of what you originally said which I applaud you. Either is was a permanent body or wasn't. That is the question?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112489)

To teach that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity is actually Arianism. Here is the question I ask all folks who believe this.
"What happened to that body at the incarnation?"

Should be simple.:thumbsup Good luck. Micheal has never been able to answer that so I am waiting?

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112606)

Yeah.

I'm sure that the quote above makes all the sense in the world to you but it's all circular reasoning to me.

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1112644)

I'm pretty sure they are saying that body became flesh... Of course that's a relatively simple explanation since neither of them really use the term body to describe the Word.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112652)

Splain that please how did the BODY become flesh?:thumbsup

Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112660)

LOL. They shoulda said it was a temp body that vaporized.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112675)

Very simple the word planted a sperm in Mary's womb. How do you plant a BODY(note the same body which is seen as a man)in Mary's womb? What does pemanent meant to you? In the words of Rush "words" mean something.:thumbsup

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112476)

These are my thoughts...





Condensing it: God exists simultaneously as omnipresent, invisble and yet He exists as in a visible form, known as the WORD. The visible form of God became flesh (the Man Christ Jesus). Therefore, that Man Christ Jesus is still our LORD, which is why we must worship him.
Nonetheless, God (in the invisble, omnipresent state) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice, it says our Lord. And as Christians, we have ONLY one Lord.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
So, there's a distinction in the visible and invisble existence of God, yet, only ONE (numerically One, not unity) God.

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1112704)

His body changed after death, just as ours will, and He rejoined His Father and God.

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1112718)

If it's circular reasoning then prove it is.

And yes it makes sense.

God is Eternal. God is God Himself, Yahweh.

God became the Son when God was incarnate.

Thus the Son pre-existed as God Himself not as God the Son. That is as simple as simple can get and that is not circular reasoning. That is linear reasoning

Please prove that was circular reasoning

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1112725)

The did not say a body was planted inside Mary. Strawman argument #2

How did God plant a sperm cell in Mary? How did God turn an idea into a sperm cell? Don't know?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112741)

I believe the Logos was the visible form of the omnipresent spirit. I believe that form was an angelic type spirit body. Its ridiculous to think God had no spiritual body. He sat on a throne. He talked with Angels. They saw him and worshipped him.

Jacob said his ELOHIM was the Angel.

15 He blessed Joseph, and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has fed me all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads, and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. Gen. 48:15-16

In my opinion Jacob the Father of the Jewish nation, the grandson of Abraham knew more about Elohim than Trins, Arians, or modern Oneness. He said his God was the Angel.

That is the way it was passed down to the Jewish nation.

2 Yahweh also has a controversy with Judah,
and will punish Jacob according to his ways;
according to his deeds he will repay him.
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel;
and in his manhood he contended with God.
4 Indeed, he struggled with the angel, and prevailed;
he wept, and made supplication to him.
He found him at Bethel, and there he spoke with us,
5 even Yahweh, the God of Armies;
Yahweh is his name of renown! Hosea 12:2-5

This was no "pop up" angel that just popped up every now and then. It/he was the angel of his presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

This great Theophany (the only one there ever was) existed from the beginning of creation until Bethlehem. It did not vanish away or dematerialize. Rather it was taken by the omnipresent spirit and reduced down into a human seed implanted in the womb of the blessed virgin. In other words the Logos was made flesh.

So before the Logos was made flesh God existed as omnipresent spirit to big for the galaxies to contain. 1 Kings 8:27. As such he could not possibly be seen. He had no need of a form who was there to see him anyway?

Before creation he brought forth this form to express his eternal life to that he would create! So the Angels would not be standing there saying "Hey who are we?" "What are we doing here"? "Wheres God"?

Rather they would look upon a throne with a glorious being seated there. He could explain to them who he was and who they were. He could interact with his creation.

Though he was the Creator he was also the firstborn of all creation. Though he was the Creator he was the beginning of the creation of God.

And yet Jesus preexisted not just as the Angel of YHWH but also as the omnipresent spirit because tho the Logos was with God the Logos also WAS GOD.

So the Angel of YHWH was with YHWH in the sense of the visible being with the invisible not as another God person.

THIS IS THE MISSING PART OF ONENESS DOCTRINE. Without this I have noticed that the Trins always SEEM to defeat Oneness teachers in their debates.

Modern Oneness does not have the answer for John 1:1. Neither for John 17:5. Neither for Phil. 2:6.

Modern Oneness does agree with Ancient Oneness that there is only one God and Jesus is God. Yet over time they have been seduced away from the BIBLICAL DOCTRINE as to how Jesus Christ preexisted.