Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Just read this scripture and noticed something different reading it. We all read this to be the fivefold ministry, but it can be read as four depending on you comprehension.
1)apostles
2)prophets
3)evangelists
4)pastors and teachers (could have been meant to be the same)

I do believe that today's church has the terminology a little mixed up, but God is who gives these ministries to the church, so us identifying them incorrectly does not terminate their existence.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

N13 sn Some interpreters have understood the phrase pastors and teachers to refer to one and the same group. This would mean that all pastors are teachers and that all teachers are pastors. This position is often taken because it is recognized that both nouns (i.e., pastors and teachers) are governed by one article in Greek. But because the nouns are plural, it is extremely unlikely that they refer to the same group, but only that the author is linking them closely together. It is better to regard the pastors as a subset of teachers. In other words, all pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. See ExSyn 284.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Titus and Timothy were to appoint deacons and bishops. Again elder is a more general term whereas deacons and bishops are more title specific.

I agree with the Bible translators being off base doctrinally on some things, but I really don't know the individual translators personally where apostate. I have confidence that none of the meaning was changed in translation. What I meant by trusting them over us is: they were the one translating the Greek into English and they would know for sure what they were meaning by the words they were using, surely I would think. If they used the English word bishop they knew what that word was implying and whether if they were implied to Timothy and Titus. IMO.

Do you disagree that Timothy and Titus where then the first bishops to those churches?

Mt. 20 wasn't refuting having church government, but explaining how it is to work. Again what we call today a pastor is to be a minister and not a lord or king. Even in plurality of leaders that can be aristocracy where the few dictate over all else. What I mean by submitting to a pastor is to the gospel message they preach, but even then I feel we should try all the things presented through our own personal study.


Although some maybe lazy, I believe others covet the gifts and want to gain what others have received through a ministry developed over time. Again this isn't a lordship thing where people serve the pastor. Pastors really are in that ministry to serve the people. Submission is to the word of God and the will of God. It is not to work on lawns for free for your pastor. It also is not a shut up and do what I say position. Some may be doing it that way, but the wheat and the tares will one day be sorted.

I believe elders are pastors, but they are not limited to that role. Bishops and deacons are both chosen from elders, but there role is distinctive, although I may not be sure exactly what every detail of it is. I have explained what I gather from the scriptures those roles are as much as can.

We aren't to be lords over anything. Our authority is the gospel otherwise any respect that may be paid is more than is deserved.

You are naming places where Peter was ahead of his contemporaries (I am glad they submitted or the door to the gentiles would still be closed). It is not that Peter is the head, but he was the one with the revelation message. I have no scripture telling me Peter had some title: honorary apostle or superintendent, but neither should we. It shouldn't matter if we are called pastor or bishop, but our focus should be to fulfill that ministry.

I don't have a problem with questions depending on what they are about and depending on who is the audience. I also don't have a problem publicly telling the church I don't know something. Some questions may not be appropriate to all that are present in our assemblies. We do open forum in some services, but it can be counterproductive depending on the venue. I hope you are understanding what I mean. I don't have a problem with church participation in Bible study, but some times I may have to redirect the question unless the church has a consensus for me to give an answer. If there is a question then ask, but for the sake of all there, we should stay relevant and on topic.

Aquila and Priscilla had awesome ministries but it doesn't say they were in any leadership role of church government. My wife and I are a team, but she is not called to pastor or to be a bishop over men in our church. I do good to submit to her at times, but God has commanded me to be the head of my home.

Again must head to work, good discussion though thank you for that.[/QUOTE]

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

:highfive

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I agree with this and my point was just in conjecture. I do think that possibly we use the word pastor where bishop is more specific of the role.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I think Bishop was generally a local leader over several churches. Each church had a group of Pastors likely

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

pastor=deacons?

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

Good Samaritan, while I have enjoyed this conversation I feel I must let it go for now. I just want to respond to just a couple points.

There is so much just in this last statement you made to respond to. Again just what and how do you define the difference between ministries and leadership roles of church government? By what authority did Aquila and Priscilla have if not a leadership role, when they took Apollos aside and expounded the word to him. Acts 18. And Paul calls them his co-laborers. Romans 16.

You say your wife is not called, But you are. That makes me wonder how you define being called, first we have discussed and read that bishops, elders and deacons were chosen by and ordained by others not called of God. Whether these are different positions or interchangeable names for the same position, they were not called of God, but placed into position by others.
That being said, I see a major problem, man has made in defining the role of the wife, and submission to her husband. First in the beginning, God gave t he wife as a "Help Meet" look that one up. The wife was intended to be equal to her husband. Secondly Paul's instruction of the submission of the wife is, "as unto Christ" "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body". Your headship over your wife is only in spiritual matters, period.
Meaning that if you are called or ordained into ministry, your wife is part of that ministry because she is part of you.
Can you see the difference? God did not command you to be the head of your home, as God created your wife in the beginning as a help meet, rather God commanded you to be the spiritual leader in your home as Christ is the church. And get that last part, "and gave himself for it".

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

I am continually amazed that people can read something and get two differing view points because they read with preconceived ideas.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I believe we wrongly call these the five fold ministry. They are ministry gifts yes, but the ministry is of the saints. But the biggest problem I see in how we read this passage, is how we have subjugated the higher gifts and raised the least gift above them, on the sole reasoning that Pastor means shepherd.

Yet when Paul list the ministries to the church in Corinth he drops the term pastor all together.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

This leads me to read Ephesians 4 as pastor/teacher, or pastor indeed/likewise teachers.

Re: McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamati
 

He also left out evangelists.....

You are comparing two different contexts...in fact letters to two different churchs on two different topics