Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1323564)

Goofy.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1323722)

The subject is being BORN AGAIN! If he hadn't be born first the discussion would not have taken place. Natural birth is water and spirit thus the spiritual birth is water & Spirit. See how easy that was?:thumbsup Glad I could be a help.

Anyone doing a casual reading in Acts can see the importance of being baptized in water. It as done immediately after someone believed.
Before Jesus taught or performed the first miracle He was baptized.
The scribes rejected the counsel of God not being baptized.
Paul said baptism puts us into Christ.
Peter said baptism saves us.
Baptism is FOR the remission of sins.
Baptism washes sins away.
Baptism was commanded.
ALL OT sacrifices and services included water.
The Spirit of God was resting on the waters in Gen.1:2
Anyone who didn't wash in water died trying to enter into the tabernacle.
Have you ever noticed all the miracles in scripture that includes water?
Minimize water in the plan at your on eternal peril.

Originally Posted by Abiding Now (Post 1323765)

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The key word as Bro. Epley has pointed out is born AGAIN. Baptist and most trinitarians incorrectly teach that the water was from your natural birth, but Jesus said AGAIN. Water and spirit at first birth and water and Spirit at second verse.

Originally Posted by Carl (Post 1323755)

Water and spirit birth can never be destroyed for those who have experienced it.

Originally Posted by Carl (Post 1323755)

Water and spirit birth can never be destroyed for those who have experienced it.

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 1323801)

:thumbsup

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation will suffice."

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323815)

Guys, I thought I would post this from a different thread yhat we are hving a debate on for those that never considered this...



Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Read it CAREFULLY bro.

Jesus said....8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth(it cannot be felt, thus you cannot know the direction of it, the only way to identify it is a SOUND) so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Acts 2:2....2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,(not a wind, but the SOUND of a wind) and it filled all the house where they were sitting.


We have heard preachers all our life say it was a wind...that is not the truth.

It was only a SOUND of a wind in both passages. That was a miraculous "sign" that Jesus gave in John 3 of how to identify the actual outpouring of the Holy Ghost for the 1st time in history.

Read it carefully....

So is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Now look at what happened next...Acts 2:41


Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


You see the fulfillment of the the Spirit birth AND the Water birth in Acts 2

Originally Posted by NotforSale (Post 1323823)

What will happen to 99.9999999% of the Human Race who don't believe in this Doctrine? Even people within our own Faith can't agree on this issue, and this never ending debate is a complete waste of time. Religion and Men have created this dogma, not God.

People need to wake up to the real truth, being set free from ideas that revel in the fear of unknown, unproven realms that torment those who afraid to question.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323819)

I've always understood it to be imagery and not actually wind (as of) or even the actual sound of wind. It is the same as Matthew 3:16 "...he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove...." It wasn't an actual dove (like a), but imagery of gentleness, the dove being the most gentle of birds.

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323825)

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323824)

I was amazed when I worked for the Census Bureau, years ago, how many people had come into contact, accepted and later walked away from a Pentecostal style message of salvation - not speaking standards here. So, you have no idea how many people are familiar with the Gospel message. I'm not going to put my view of what people believe and what they are doing over what the Word of God says. That would be foolish.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323828)

"as of"? Isn't that imagery?

Originally Posted by NotforSale (Post 1323829)

After 35 years of being in the UPC, 20 of those years as a pastor, I was surprised to find how few people knew about our Doctrine and beliefs. The people that might know a little about us, know nothing of the depths of who we really are.

It's easy (sometimes) to reel in a visitor, but just wait until you drop the "Standards" hammer, or the "Tongues". There are so many quirks within our Faith that send people down the road, confused and broken.

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323831)

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323830)

Originally Posted by NotforSale (Post 1323829)

After 35 years of being in the UPC, 20 of those years as a pastor, I was surprised to find how few people knew about our Doctrine and beliefs. The people that might know a little about us, know nothing of the depths of who we really are.

It's easy (sometimes) to reel in a visitor, but just wait until you drop the "Standards" hammer, or the "Tongues". There are so many quirks within our Faith that send people down the road, confused and broken.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323833)

Imagery - the formation of mental images, figures, or likenesses of things.

When I have been in a service where the Holy Ghost sweeps over the place, it is the imagery of the sound of wind, but it is not wind at all. "As of" is imagery. lol

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323836)

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323835)

I meet people all the time. More now than I did almost 30 years ago who have experienced some Pentecost - take you for example. :heeheehee

I have experienced quite a lot of women ask if they have to wear a dress to visit the church. That means they know enough to weigh whether interested or not. So, I agree, they (many) go somewhere else, and some stay.

Originally Posted by NotforSale (Post 1323839)

Area is also critical. If you go to Texas, where there are numerous Apostolic churches, there would be more familiarity.

But try going to Northern California, or the Bay Area, where I grew up. You tell people you are Apostolic and they have nothing but a "WHO?" look on their face.

It's really that way in the entire Northwestern United States. But also keep in mind, only 4.4% of the Worlds population live in America.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323838)

Right, a literal sound that they used imagery to describe - loud wind.

The Spirit that descended upon Jesus wasn't an actual dove, the imagery was gentleness, hence the imagery of a dove.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323841)

True. I agree that geographics would play a part.

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323842)

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323844)

I am saying that the Bible says, "As of", that means in the Greek, "exactly like". So, whatever the sound was, it reminded them of wind. So, yes, I am saying they apparently heard something. They used imagery to describe the sound as something they were familiar with, wind.

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323845)

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1323852)

We were on the same page from the beginning. I was speaking more to your point in Post #44 "We have heard preachers all our life say it was a wind..."

Then you went on to say "It was only a sound of a wind." Which kind of looks like you were still having the idea that it was wind. Sound of wind doesn't support that view, but sound of "a" wind does. So, I was confused by your post, initially.

Of course, these posts could be a very good example of nitpicking the scriptures to death. :heeheehee

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1323867)

I sure love my 4 birth believing brothers!!

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323879)

We love you too our unborn brother(stuck in the birth canal)....LOL


FYI....that's somebody conceived(born) by the Spirit but not yet born again of the water through baptism.

Originally Posted by obriencp (Post 1323883)

at least it seems someone understood my posts.

Originally Posted by DaveC519 (Post 1323590)

1)- No one before Zwingli ever taught that water baptism was the "works of man".

2)- Since cognition involves the firing of neurons in the brain, the very act of the mind thinking about faith and exercising faith would then be categorized as physical activity and therefore, by your own definition above, be considered "works".

Originally Posted by obriencp (Post 1323884)

i think you got that backwards... babies are surrounded by water first then breath. If he's stuck in the "birth canal" he doesn't have spirit.

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1323903)

They are not born until they exit the womb.

Spiritually speaking....Conceived in the womb by the Spirit and refuses to be baptized...Not finished being reborn.

Just doesnt want to be born thats all... POOR MAMA must be annoyed....LOL

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1323887)

Yea, why some dont understand the problem with believing in 4 births is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If (Post 1323540)

Taken from the following site:

http://www.bereanresearchinstitute.c...spel_True.html

"1. The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) adds to the simplicity of the Gospel of Salvation that is taught by Jesus Christ - and that is in Jesus Christ (II Cor 11:2-4) - by teaching that, to be born again, a person must do certain physical acts, namely:
a. Be baptized in water (which they claim is burial in Christ), and

Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 1323978)

Scripture claims this: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."--Romans 6:3-4



Resurrection in the Spirit? I think that it is a sign that you have been filled by the Spirit. "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." --Acts 2:4



Faith is demonstrated by works.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" --James 2:16-20



The question for me isn't whether a repentant sinner is "offended" by the suggestion of water baptism and being filled with the Spirit; the question for me is, "Why would anyone want to forbid water for baptism or refrain from laying hands on someone so they can be filled with the Holy Ghost?" What kind of person wants to deny baptism or spirit-infilling? Those who deliberately withhold those God-given experiences from new believers are in danger from Him, IMHO. It isn't our job to experiment with the possibility that people can be saved without any of the works that were taught and practiced in scripture. It is our job to follow scripture. Hearers and doers. Believers and keepers. Faith demonstrated by works. Like it or not, scripture pairs the two together from the OT all the way through the NT.



Sometimes people are offended by truth itself, and their rejection of truth is what inhibits their freedom. It's the truth that makes people free. Sometimes they are only "almost persuaded." We shouldn't reshape the Gospel to suit people who really aren't ready for what God requires of them. He does require something of us-salvation isn't truly free. Grace is free; salvation isn't. Salvation requires a response and obedience. We become free of sin, and then we become the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:18)

Originally Posted by Abiding Now (Post 1323858)

Amazing how backslid preachers have such insights into truth.:banghead