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-   -   The Pre-Existence Of The Son (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=37398)

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 06:31 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnbcox (Post 1112227)
The son was the father in flesh. Son was what defined the flesh worn by God as He manifested himself to us
Agreed.

So what existence was there of the son prior to the flesh?

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 06:33 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112284)
I believe the Son only existed in the mind and plan of God before incarnation.
This day have I begotten thee.......................happened twice at His birth and His resurrection NOT in eternity past.
Thanks Brother Epley.

This is what I have always been taught and do still believe although, as I had mentioned, there are a few "head scratcher" verses out there that I find hard to reconcile with my beliefs sometimes.

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 06:39 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodoxy (Post 1112195)
Passages such as Philippians 2 indicate that the Father and Son existed before the incarnation.



As the verse says, the Son "emptying himself" refers to his laying aside his heavenly glory and coming to earth as a man.

And there are other Scriptures, like the one you mentioned earlier in the thread.



I don't see how someone can come to any other conclusion but that both the Father and Son existed as separate "persons" before the Incarnation. I realize that the English word "persons" has some negative connotations, but it's the most precise word we can come up with.

Yep... that's one of those head scratchers I keep mentioning. I have a concept of the Father and the son... but there are a few scriptures that I have trouble honestly reconciliing with that concept.

But... I don't bail on a doctrinal stance because of head scratchers. I have to study until I find an overall reconciliation that works all the way around (because it is there... somewhere) and then the Bible wins and all other thought processes lose.

Orthodoxy 11-09-2011 06:54 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 1112230)
I understand The Son existed in God's mind,but I don't see God manifesting Himself in flesh before the incarnation.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Christ had a physical body before the incarnation.

berkeley 11-09-2011 07:38 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodoxy (Post 1112310)
I don't think anyone is claiming that Christ had a physical body before the incarnation.
Ah, but did he have a form of a body, or was he without form?

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 08:10 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
It would seem that He had a form.

Steve Epley 11-09-2011 08:10 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112323)
Ah, but did he have a form of a body, or was he without form?
He appeared in a theophany.

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 08:11 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 1112357)
It would seem that He had a form.
Per my current understanding the only "form" the son had before the incarnation was in the foreknowledge of God.

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 08:11 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Elder Epley could you give us your definition of a theophany ?

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 08:14 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Well seeing that Christ was God manifest in flesh,certainly God had a form prior to the incarnation.If man was created in His image and likeness,that was a form man was patterned from it seems.

berkeley 11-09-2011 08:15 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112359)
Per my current understanding the only "form" the son had before the incarnation was in the foreknowledge of God.
The Logos?

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 08:16 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112362)
The Logos?
Yes. Berkeley you're pretty sharp could you explain the Logos to me please ?

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 08:23 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112362)
The Logos?
That is used by many and I don't have any issue with that.

My current stance is simply this.

There is one God... an invisible, all powerful and who is at all places at all times.

Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God. He was begotten of Mary and had no existence before that conception other than in the mind and plan of God who knows the end from the beginning.

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 08:24 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112370)
That is used by many and I don't have any issue with that.

My current stance is simply this.

There is one God... an invisible, all powerful and who is at all places at all times.

Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God. He was begotten of Mary and had no existence before that conception other than in the mind and plan of God who knows the end from the beginning.
I'll buy this.

berkeley 11-09-2011 08:24 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
ya, sharp as a dull point.

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 08:25 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
No come on,I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

TGBTG 11-09-2011 08:53 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.

Steve Epley 11-09-2011 09:32 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 1112360)
Elder Epley could you give us your definition of a theophany ?
Theo=God
phanies=appearances


God chose to make himself visible at times thus the word materialized in a form when needed then returned back to word. Thus the Logos was made visible. In the Incarnation the Word BECAME flesh not appeared as flesh.

Steve Epley 11-09-2011 09:33 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112389)
Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.
Yes.

Light 11-09-2011 10:14 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 1112361)
Well seeing that Christ was God manifest in flesh,certainly God had a form prior to the incarnation.If man was created in His image and likeness,that was a form man was patterned from it seems.
(KJV) Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Scott Hutchinson 11-09-2011 10:32 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112401)
Theo=God
phanies=appearances


God chose to make himself visible at times thus the word materialized in a form when needed then returned back to word. Thus the Logos was made visible. In the Incarnation the Word BECAME flesh not appeared as flesh.
Thank you kindly.

seekerman 11-09-2011 10:47 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
The Son, the Christ, existed WITH His God and Father before His incarnation.

The Son, the Christ did not exist as His own God and Father before His incarnation.

Amanah 11-09-2011 10:48 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1112411)
The Son, the Christ, existed WITH His God and Father before His incarnation.
what was his job/function before his incarnation?
was he a disembodied spirit?
did he perform any God like functions?
was he just hanging around waiting to be born?

seekerman 11-09-2011 10:54 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1112412)
what was his job/function before his incarnation?
was he a disembodied spirit?
did he perform any God like functions?
was he just hanging around waiting to be born?
No, He wasn't just hanging around. He made appearances throughout the OT but more than that, He was whom His Father used to co-create all creation.

After His short sojourn on earth 2000 years ago, He again enjoyed the relationship with His God and Father which He had enjoyed before His incarnation. He was with His God and Father before His incarnation and He's currently with His God and Father. He isn't His own God and Father, they're two separate and distinct entities.

Amanah 11-09-2011 10:57 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1112415)
No, He wasn't just hanging around. He made appearances throughout the OT but more than that, He was whom His Father used to co-create all creation.

After His short sojourn on earth 2000 years ago, He again enjoyed the relationship with His God and Father which He had enjoyed before His incarnation. He was with His God and Father before His incarnation and He's currently with His God and Father. He isn't His own God and Father, they're two separate and distinct entities.
so he performed functions that are God like, i.e. creation, and he appears as theophanies? and he was sacrificed for sins, anything else he did?

seekerman 11-09-2011 10:58 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1112416)
so he performed functions that are God like, i.e. creation, and he appears as theophanies? and he was sacrificed for sins, anything else he did?
That's a good start, don't you think? :)

Amanah 11-09-2011 11:00 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1112418)
That's a good start, don't you think? :)
yeah, but if you can perform acts of God and appear as God, how is it that you are not God?

seekerman 11-09-2011 11:03 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1112420)
yeah, but if you can perform acts of God and appear as God, how is it that you are not God?
It's because His God and Father gave Him all power and authority. His God and Father was the giver and He, Jesus the Christ, was the recipient.

Jesus was nothing without His God and Father and the position which He enjoyed and strictly because of the actions of His God and Father toward Him.

TGBTG 11-09-2011 11:08 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1112411)
The Son, the Christ, existed WITH His God and Father before His incarnation.

The Son, the Christ did not exist as His own God and Father before His incarnation.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.

berkeley 11-09-2011 11:14 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
uhoh

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 11:17 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112424)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.
The words he is using are in line with the word of God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

berkeley 11-09-2011 11:17 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112424)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.
John 1v2 He was in the beginning with God.

TGBTG 11-09-2011 11:22 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112436)
The words he is using are in line with the word of God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
I'm not denying that the Word was with God. What I'm saying is that the scriptures also say that the Word was God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He is quoting only "the word was with God" and leaving out "the word was God"

TGBTG 11-09-2011 11:23 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112437)
John 1v2 He was in the beginning with God.
Yes, the WORD was in the beginning with God. And the WORD was God himself.
That's what John 1:1 says.

TGBTG 11-09-2011 11:25 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112389)
Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.
bump

Digging4Truth 11-09-2011 11:30 AM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112440)
I'm not denying that the Word was with God. What I'm saying is that the scriptures also say that the Word was God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He is quoting only "the word was with God" and leaving out "the word was God"
What are your thoughts on what the verses I quoted are saying?

They say "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

seekerman 11-09-2011 12:26 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112424)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.
Yes, Jesus IS some type of subordinate. He takes orders, so to speak, from His God and Father. He submits Himself to His God and Father, His God and Father does not submit Himself to His Son, Jesus the Christ.

The only reason Jesus the Christ is equal with God the Father is because He is recipient of that position from His God and Father. All that Jesus was/is comes directly from His God and Father. His anointing, His position, His power, ect. He is nothing within Himself, as He's said so many times.

Praxeas 11-09-2011 12:31 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112298)
But that verse does not mention the Son. It mentions "Christ" Jesus. And it mentions the "form" of God.
That's like saying "But the reporter did not mention Obamak he mentions President....so he must not be talking about Obama:"

Praxeas 11-09-2011 12:32 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112300)
Praxeas said "I think the Son pre-existed being human as God Himself" and you replied "Stated perfectly" along with others who agreed as well.

If the son pre-existed as God himself... was he God the son? How did he exist?
If the Son pre-existed as GOD HIMSELF....Then He was God Himself not God the Son...How did He exist? As God Himself...the answer was right infront of you

Praxeas 11-09-2011 12:37 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 1112304)
Thanks Brother Epley.

This is what I have always been taught and do still believe although, as I had mentioned, there are a few "head scratcher" verses out there that I find hard to reconcile with my beliefs sometimes.
If the Son is a Person then He is either the same Person as God and so then He personally has always existed as God OR He is someone OTHER than God and what you have is Unitarianism... 2 persons.

That is the issue. The Son is both a WHO and a WHAT...and as a WHO He has always existed AS God Himself not as one of three WHOs...not as a second Divine Himself...but as God Himself. Not as the Son or God the Son but as God HIMSELF the ONLY WHO and WHAT that there ever was that is God. That WHO and WHAT became the Son when HE was incarnate.

At that time God (WHO) added to HIMSELF (Person) the Human nature. At that time God (WHAT) was United with the Human nature, not mixed or confused but in unity.

God is a Person with a Divine nature who added to Himself a Human nature and when HE took up that human manner of being limiting Himself to the Human nature, He became the Son.


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