Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

That same thinking has eliminated the "pulpit" from platforms, replacing it with a small collapsible lectern, or clear plexiglass stand to hold a Bible or notes, or the pastor/teacher might just sit on a chair and speak.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

I am happy to say we don't do any Shirley Caesar type stuff, we don't have a strobe light but I gotta tell you we do have a blazin' guitar and I love it.

Music is all preference the Spirit doesn't "Move" with one kind of music our emotions are stirred by music. We equate a "Move of the Spirit" to the song that moves us, let's not confuse the two.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Not at all, you can easily get a inexpensive older PAR Can system from www.musiciansfriend.com for cheap. The only downside to them versus the new zero heat LED lights is that you really really need to crack up your air conditioning.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...m-1?sku=801700

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

I wonder if he was preaching against this church?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...26tbs%3Disch:1

Even the Ultra-Ultra Cons have custom high end LED lights to set atmosphere... thats a very expensive system.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

That's cool by me. In the Bible, a "pulpit" consisted of bare scaffolding that was stacked up to raise the speaker up so that his voice carried further. There was no "desk" type apparatus involved at all.

If there is no Biblical example or precedent for things, like a "pulpit" desk - then they are just "things" to be used or discarded as needs arise and change.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

I can not agree with this.

I really believe that the Holy Spirit will not be manifested in our services if our Praise and Worship leaders sung songs similar to Toby Mac's, "Extreme Days."

Is there anything wrong with the song?

No way! Does it lead me to worship? No way, but I sure do feel pumped after listening to it!!!

Even I know there is more to praise and more to worship than feeling pumped.


Is there a better chance that the Holy Spirit would move with Chris Tomlin's, "Better Is One Day"?

It's not the song as much as the mind set that the song puts you in.


Some of Shirley Caesar's and Donnie McClurkin's music helps us to bring our minds and hearts to a place where we can praise God from our heart and receive from Him the blessings of His presence manifested in our services.


There is more to this than preference, though it may be a part of it. It's definitely not all that there is to this issue.

Much of the CCM produced today DOES NOTHING to create an atmosphere of worship and does nothing to put us in the right frame of mind to praise and worship God from our hearts, with our voice and with the activity of our limbs.


I don't think I've said anything that is particularly disagreeable.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Why don't we get down to the truth. This is really just a railing of complaints Howard Davis is using to get back at his brother's grandson's church in Riverside, CA. When the Riverside church changed their worship services, many members moved to Larry Booker's Inland Lighthouse Church in Rialto, CA (WPF).

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

I agree that many times it is how the song is sung, and the intent behind the song. Look at these two songs.

Here is the radio version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPEYphZk8s

And now look at the difference with the accoustic version... people sitting around in a peaceful sort of way... perhaps pensively considering the words of the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSVBQByfTvU


IMHO, a very big difference. The radio version is geared for just that... the second version is geared for church worship. I have been in a service where he sang it, and it is definetely a "worship" song.

BUT, on topic of this post. Anytime you change the map... as in change the map of someone's reality... it is tough. You are showing them truth, and when you have been taught that the world is flat... well, it is still hard to believe, even when the map now shows you have a whole new world discovered.

This is why, if we seek TRUTH, we will find God.... and expand our maps.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

How illuminating. Thanks.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

I don't believe that was the reason he voiced his valid concerns.


Our Pentecostal worship services should be geared towards bringing people to a place where they can experience their own personal, Biblically based Pentecost.

I am absolutely convinced that there are good Christian songs that would prohibit that from happening if brought into the worship setting.

There is more to this subject than preference.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Perhaps from your experience and view point, JD. And, you are correct - within that perspective.

But the practice of publishing an article to decry the way some other pastor is conducting his services is common amongst us, unfortunately. Someone who is unfamiliar with the direct circumstances may take up a point or two and apply it to their own situation. However, when (and if) we can understand the author's own experiences then we can get at the root of his complaint and understand his motivation better.

You are correct - on the Atlantic coast. However, the writer's heart and concerns appear to have been rather narrowly focused on "the Valley" out near the Pacific coast.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

RE: The underlined portion above.

Since no one in recorded history has actually experienced the "Biblical Pentecost" (speaking in foreign languages that were understood by native speakers, cloven tongues of fire, etc) this statement is left open to a great deal of analysis.

Just how does the style of music (and I mean reasonably here, no AC/DC - just Christian worship music including "modern" or contemporary styles) affect what God is going to do since His plans were set in motion from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)? Is He really moved by the relatively insignificant changes of musical style over the years?

The article under review here was clearly directed at some things that the author found disturbing within his own fellowship experience. He describes the object of his concern thusly:

"There are Changes being promoted among UPCI Churches, by young, and some not so young, Preachers. These CHANGERS want to totally change the form and order of Church Services, and are ACCOMPLISHING it in some Churches."

He then goes on to make the outrageous charge that:

"These CHANGERS seem to be totally unaware that they are catering to rebellious, hippy mind set, drug infested, immoral, street living Worldlings."

He then focuses upon the specific object of his concern (as identified by "Crazy Joe"):

"They, the “Changers” have for the most part, paid nothing nor sacrificed their life to bring a Church into being."

You hear this particular complaint a lot. I don't know the pastor facing this scorn personally, but I have worked in and seen many churches where "the respected elder" was well past his prime by the time hit hit 50, yet he stayed on. The church was then carried by the faithful labors of his children (both "in the Gospel" and even natural children) while the old man reaped the benefits of age and had the chance and free time to follow his own curiosities and pursuits.

Later, when the transition was made official and the "younger guy" was allowed more reign to shape things according to his vision - the old man's buddies all cried "Foul!" because "the kids" had never sacrificed to build the church.

Baloney.

What we see here is the error and sin of Nebuchadnezzar and "The Mark of the Beast." This article cries out from the pits of Babylon. The writer has proclaimed himself to be everything from the head of gold to the Ten Toed Kingdoms of this world. We must NOT bow down to this graven image - I don't care what kind of music they play! We must NOT bow down!

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

That "POST" was made by DAII on 5/26/2010.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30108

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

You sure are ascribing a lot of negativity to this man of God.

I think you are over reacting here, and maybe even insulting to the writer's intentions.

Honestly, what I gathered from the article was that he is urging that Pentecostal churches remain Pentecostal in worship and experience.

I would even take it one step further-- people should be able to tell you are a Christian in the way you dress. I'm not talking standards, but the Bible speaks very clearly about modesty.


The manifestation of the Holy Ghost in our services SO PRECIOUS! It is the Grace of God that allows us to experience Him in this way.

Why would we want to allow anything into our churches that has the potential to take something so precious away from our services?



Music plays a role, and I am talking more than just preferences.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Can you define modesty, biblically? The word is only in the Bible once. I do believe in dressing modestly, but I think it falls under the heading of 'love your neighbor'. The Bible really doesn't address how much skin should/should not show. So I really don't think we can say "the Bible speaks very clearly about modesty", not in the context with which we usually use the word.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

The Bible does speak clearly about modesty.

The command for modesty is clear.

We must avoid legalism as legalism dulls the fire of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people.

With that said, we should be careful as we dress, to not purposely incite lust in others-- males and females. Individual liberties should not be stiffled by the weaknesses of others, but neither should our liberties be overtly offensive.

Even Paul valued his liberty in Christ.

This can be done, and should be done, with the leading of the Holy Spirit. If a person must be taught, it's should be in a way that doesn't stiffle individuality.

We were not created in the image of a robot. We were created in the image of GOD and He is very creative.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Acts Chapter 15

7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

----------------------------------------------------------------------- And later this was the conclusion of the Counsel of Jerusalem...

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't seem the counsel of Jerusalem had much to say about dress code.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

LOL. All in good humor - Considering the negativity that he heaps upon those with a different viewpoint, I'd say he's probably used to it.
The writer's intentions were clearly intended to be insulting. I had hung back earlier and didn't express what I thought to be the rather obvious family connections involved. "Crazy Joe" let that cat out of the bag.
The man accused his own nephew of conducting worship services "like... druggies." He then belittled the years of hard work this pastor had put into his congregation. That cuts pretty deep.
And would you like to hear what some of these hardliners have to say about your church and your pastor?
We don't! But there are those who will complain about every worship chorus that you sang last week and compare your style of worship with something "ungodly."

You are fortunate, JD and I don't know if you really understand how blessed you are. You've never had the "standards nazis" tear you down before entire audiences of people using insinuation and false accusations to try and undermine the good work that God was doing in your life or through your ministry.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Well put. :thumbsup

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

And... there were athletes working out completely naked in public not very far from that spot.

They certainly didn't approve of that practice - but even within that cultural milieu no dress code is even deemed worthy of mention in their instructions to the Gentile Christians.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

No. Anyone who wants to criticize my Pastor and church can eat my dirty socks!

The complaining is valid if the worship choruses sung do not help to create an atmosphere of true praise and heartfelt worship to Jesus Christ.





Dude, have you not read about ANY of the things I went through in Jacksonville, NC?

The First United Pentecostal Church of Jacksonville, NC is where I learned to pray and I had a WHOLE LOT to pray about while I was there!!!

I laugh now, but it wasn't funny being called "satan" publicly while it was happening.

That's just 1 thing.

Don't get me started!

I know all about lies, false accusations and such.

I truly thank God for my Jacksonville experience, nowadays.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Sorry, Bro. I remember when you posted something about that but I had been on a "sabbatical" and didn't really catch up with everything.

You are blessed now.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

AMEN!!


Though I do differ in my beliefs now and sometimes that causes problems-- most of the time personal problems as I would never want to mess with anyone else's walk with God or with the sheep that God has allowed my Pastor to labor over.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Whoever that is...he's one smart dude.

:thumbsup

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Kinda. Sorta.

But most definitely DIDN'T INHERIT ANYTHING.

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

Alright, this Brother has set me straight. No more "New Age Heavy Metal NOISE". I'm sticking with "Really Old Age Heavy Metal NOISE", like from a few centuries ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_SrT8CPRoQ

Re: Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS"
 

I can't help but envision the freecreditreport.com guys singing in front of his church.

http://sportschump.net/wp-content/up...eport-trio.jpg
"Me and my boys planned on singing in Vegas.
So why are we here singing for Howard Davissss.
This just isn't the bomb,
If only I'd checked my credit report..... On freecreditreport.com."