Apostolic Friends Forum - Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

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Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

FTF,

I said this elsewhere:

Covenant theology never assumes God might do things not stated in His word, so that we cannot say God will not do something in our future that is not stated in His word. That is what I am finding is the biggest chasm. We claim that the manner in which God DID MAKE certain statements disallows us to consider ANY further covenant, visible kingdom or plan of salvation in our future. Disps take what we claim prohibits these things and somehow, in our opinion, distort them. Had they not been dispensationalist, they would never say Christ's words about the Kingdom never being visible only deals with the church age when Christ made no such distinction, for example.

Luke 17:20 MKJV And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation.

Luke 17:20 GNB Some Pharisees asked Jesus when the Kingdom of God would come. His answer was, "The Kingdom of God does not come in such a way as to be seen.

Disp takes words in Acts 1:6 where the disciples asked Jesus when the Kingdom would be restored to Israel. They did not ask Him if it would, just when it would. Jesus neither taught it would and did not tell them it would. In fact, after they were regenerated, none of them mentioned the thought again. But Disp makes an entire doctrine from this and claims they expected this due to OT prophecy. Where in the OT was this promised -- a physical kingdom?

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Also, actual 1830 Disp teaches Israel and the church are forever separated forevermore. the church is not for Israel and God will save Israel outside the church after the church is raptured. This means Israel is not intended to become new creatures in Christ!

Covenant Theology states the New Covenant was for Israel and expected Israel to come in! It teaches the church is the last work in this earth. And no apostle or NT writer said otherwise.

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Hi Bro Blume

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume;

Covenant Theology states the New Covenant was for Israel and expected Israel to come in! It teaches the church is the last work in this earth. And no apostle or NT writer said otherwise.

Does Covenant Theology state WHAT occurs to bring Israel in as the last work on earth?

Post Mils state that the Church will take over the world.....and THEN Israel is saved--and Christ comes to rule.

Pre-Mils state that a tribulation occurs that brings Israel to Christ--and Christ to this earth.

AMills, I do not think have a place for Israel to make a FULL RETURN as per Romans 11. Do they?

Parson

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Quote:

Faithtofaith

Chronologically, mfblume, what is coming next for the church. Tribulation? Where do you see the church in the spectrum of history?

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Mblume

The rapture which takes us straight to the white throne.

So its end is the same as the pre tribulation rapture. Jesus could simply come any time.

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson (Post 751353)

Hi Bro Blume

Does Covenant Theology state WHAT occurs to bring Israel in as the last work on earth?

I know it teaches the manner Israel is to be saved is the same manner anyone else is saved in the church age, but I would have to research some more to say anything else beyond that.

Quote:

Post Mils state that the Church will take over the world.....and THEN Israel is saved--and Christ comes to rule.

Pre-Mils state that a tribulation occurs that brings Israel to Christ--and Christ to this earth.

AMills, I do not think have a place for Israel to make a FULL RETURN as per Romans 11. Do they?

Amills definitely state Israel can make a full return but only by way of entrance into the church. I will research some more to get more specifics.

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 751394)

So its end is the same as the pre tribulation rapture. Jesus could simply come any time.

Yes, except for a pretrib rapture having more events to follow before the white throne -- MANY more.

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

More succinct and terse definitions.

COVENANT THEOLOGY systematizes the biblical information concerning the manner in which God saves sinners through Jesus Christ. It places the Bible into a covenantal framework that makes biblical sense. The Bible speaks of salvation in terms of “covenant.” God is a covenant God who saves His people through covenants. The three main theological covenants of the Bible are the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. These are theological terms that are packed with biblical information dealing with the way God saves sinners. When someone asks, “How does God save people?” the answer lies within the framework of Covenant Theology.

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 751500)

I know it teaches the manner Israel is to be saved is the same manner anyone else is saved in the church age, but I would have to research some more to say anything else beyond that.

Amills definitely state Israel can make a full return but only by way of entrance into the church. I will research some more to get more specifics.

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Parsons

I see where you are trying to lead this I think. I would like to address your questions if I may. My respons is in Italics and underlined

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson (Post 752156)

I would be greatly interested to see how Amills regard a FULL RETURN by Israel to occur.

As I remember, it seemed as if Israel COLLECTIVELY would NEVER make a Full Return according to Amills. Israel would be no different than Iceland or some other obscure nation.

[I]I answer this with a question. When in history has every man women and child in Isreal been collectively in line with Gods word? You and Disp. are looking for the impossible. Furthermore your earthly kingdom would do away with choice and that is the reason behind all of Gods plan to bring man to the point to have a personal relationship with him[/I]
Thus far in my reading of preterist material, I have NOT come across where preterists allow for a FULL RETURN by Israel...except for those that hold to the preterist--post-millennial view. (The book loan to me by a pastor friend was written by a preterist--post-millennialist.

After 2,000 years, however, I do not foresee the rosy picture of THE CHURCH being the official religion of the world.

Muslims, for example, consider death the proper measure to deal with critics and those that abandon their faith.

Nor does it seem that the SATANIC influence has abated in nations or in individuals...even though FULL PRETERISTS claim Satan has been writhing in the fiery abyss since 70 AD.

I want to address the infuence of satan, your opinion as others cannot see the restraints God has place on satan in our time. Satan has been defeted and has no power exept that which is been given him by man. If satan has power it is because you gave it to him.

Israel has always been at the center of prophecy....and shall remain so until Christ brings them back into relationship at His Coming.

[I]And just how is God going to bring Israel back into relationship without force. Again the word of God is not about how powerful God is as it is about God giving man the path to be in relationship with God. [/I]

As you are coming to your conclusions regarding HOW IT IS or WHAT EVENTS TRANSPIRE that bring Israel collectively back to God....please do not discount that God often takes away our ability to take care of ourselves...causing us to realize that our help comes from the Lord alone.

Psa 121:1 A song for going up to worship. I look up toward the mountains. Where can I find help?
Psa 121:2 My help comes from the LORD, the maker of heaven and earth.

And please remember that OT prophecies ALREADY state what transpires.

OT proophecies state what ALREADY HAPPENED.

Blessings

Parson

Godsdrummer/laromans12

Re: Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson (Post 752156)

As far as ascendency over other nations to award them a distinct dispensation, or viewing them as something more than another nation as far as opportunity to come into the church goes, Israel is no different than Iceland. This does not mean a full return is not possible, though. To say that Israel is like any other nation is to say that God respects them no more than any other nation, and that they are not above need to come into the church as members of any other nation are concerned.

Also amills do not see Israel as experiencing anything special above other nations as though God is working with them and the church simultaneously as two different works.

Quote:

Thus far in my reading of preterist material, I have NOT come across where preterists allow for a FULL RETURN by Israel...except for those that hold to the preterist--post-millennial view. (The book loan to me by a pastor friend was written by a preterist--post-millennialist.

I allow for a full return! :) Only, they can fully return into the church alone, and by no other means, and, that, before the rapture.

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After 2,000 years, however, I do not foresee the rosy picture of THE CHURCH being the official religion of the world.

Matters not. :) The Kingdom is growing more and more.

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Muslims, for example, consider death the proper measure to deal with critics and those that abandon their faith.

Nor does it seem that the SATANIC influence has abated in nations or in individuals...even though FULL PRETERISTS claim Satan has been writhing in the fiery abyss since 70 AD.

The Church is gaining ground and I propose it will occur exponentially in the close future.

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Israel has always been at the center of prophecy....and shall remain so until Christ brings them back into relationship at His Coming.

Not so. Israel ceased being center of prophecy when the cross occurred. It is this very viewpoint you propose that I believe shows the need for properly viewing Israel.

Quote:

As you are coming to your conclusions regarding HOW IT IS or WHAT EVENTS TRANSPIRE that bring Israel collectively back to God....please do not discount that God often takes away our ability to take care of ourselves...causing us to realize that our help comes from the Lord alone.

That passage speaking of that issue must be reviewed more. Presently I feel it simply meant the door is wide open for them, and that God will not leave them without a chance and then make them get saved, as though Calvinism were the proper understanding. For God to withhold Israel from salvation and then suddenly cause them to be saved is to make them serve God. Somehow the thought of whosoever will cannot be violated when we consider "all Israel" being saved.

God bless!