Apostolic Friends Forum - Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 1535952)

[COLOR="blue"][FONT="Georgia"]*As I have stated repeatedly – and others have pointed out as well – no mater how many resources I quote this will always be the response. I expected nothing less from this forum, and have once again not been disappointed.

Excuse me, sir, but, your statement was simply wrong. I will go so far as to say that it was not factual.

So, who is disappointed? I am. You come here with blue font and a chip on your shoulder giving me information that is NOT factual.

I reiterate:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*Since you keep appealing to commentaries:

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge; Vol. 5, p. 18, informs us: “Women never cut their hair (cf. Jer. vii. 29), and long hair was their greatest ornament (Cant. iv. 1; cf. I Cor. xi 15; Cant. vii. 5).”

*The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, p. 158, “Hair”: “A woman’s hair was never cut except as a sign of deep mourning or of degradation.”

*Remember, Jesus endorsed the Jewish concept(s) of God to the woman at the well (Jn. 4) and Paul affirmed that to the Jews were written, “the oracles of God” (Rom.). Here, these 2 "major" commentaries each (independently) state that an OT woman's hair was never cut. Are they just pulling this idea out of their hat? In fact, they even reference one of the OT verses that you have actually appealed to - and they state the polar opposite of what you claim. Now what?

You say there are TWO "major" commentaries each (independently) stating that an OT woman's hair was NEVER cut. That is NOT true. Your source says that there is a consideration - she might cut her hair if she is in "mourning".

So, please, be honest. How in the world did you make that statement seriously and how did you miss that it is NOT factual?

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1535750)

I am wondering how you are able to be accurate by saying - "Here, these 2 "major" commentaries each (independently) state that an OT woman's hair was never cut."

Your second reference clearly is not that cut and dried (pun intended). It says that there is a circumstance wherein she has a choice - that being in the case of mourning.

Can you answer to that?

*Ho-hum, here we go again. As the old expression says, "if it doesn't come out of your chimney it ain't smoke." I am "able to be accurate" by allowing the data to read for itself w.out force feeding my theological preferences into the same. These reputable OT sources plainly state that "women never cut their hair" & one even cf.'s I Cor. 11.

*I will not answer any more questions until my questions are answered as directly as I have answered y'all's questions (the ol' "keep-him-on-the-ropes" ploy), esp. since you continue to change my font color - and then keep asking questions, all the while y'all reject the plain language used in every resource I directly quote. Typical AFF. You can't be serious :banghead.

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Thank you brother Perkins, the survey of various usages is helpful.

One thing is certain - if a woman never messes with her hair (no cutting at all), and a man keeps it short, neither will go wrong under any circumstance. :)

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1535955)

Excuse me, sir, but, your statement was simply wrong. I will go so far as to say that it was not factual.

So, who is disappointed? I am. You come here with blue font and a chip on your shoulder giving me information that is NOT factual.

I reiterate:

You say there are TWO "major" commentaries each (independently) stating that an OT woman's hair was NEVER cut. That is NOT true. Your source says that there is a consideration - she might cut her hair if she is in "mourning".

So, please, be honest. How in the world did you make that statement seriously and how did you miss that it is NOT factual?

*Oh give me a break. It is you libs who have the chip on your shoulder because you despise righteous living. I have never had any one on any forum alter my font color (& I ran a vBulletin forum for 2 years myself). Very telling. And the very reason I rarely come on here.

*Here, let's quote again for your assistance shall we?

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge; Vol. 5, p. 18, informs us: “Women never cut their hair (cf. Jer. vii. 29), and long hair was their greatest ornament (Cant. iv. 1; cf. I Cor. xi 15; Cant. vii. 5).”

*The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, p. 158, “Hair”: “A woman’s hair was never cut except as a sign of deep mourning or of degradation.”

*Of course there are anomaly's such as moral degradation, which was an act of shame, but that was not their normal practice (which was the context of our discussion). Otherwise, both resources plainly state that "women never cut their hair." Of course, John the Baptist could walk in the church Sunday & tell you the same thing & you would reject it - just as you do here. See how easy that was?

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1535957)

*Right. Well said. That is what I have been trying to say (but you said it better:thumbsup).

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 1535956)

Quote:

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge; Vol. 5, p. 18, informs us: “Women never cut their hair (cf. Jer. vii. 29), and long hair was their greatest ornament (Cant. iv. 1; cf. I Cor. xi 15; Cant. vii. 5).”

*The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, p. 158, “Hair”: “A woman’s hair was never cut except as a sign of deep mourning or of degradation.”

*Remember, Jesus endorsed the Jewish concept(s) of God to the woman at the well (Jn. 4) and Paul affirmed that to the Jews were written, “the oracles of God” (Rom.). Here, these 2 "major" commentaries each (independently) state that an OT woman's hair was never cut.

So, you are saying your statement is accurate to your source? Okay...

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1535960)

So, you are saying your statement is accurate to your source? Okay...

*Umm, do these words in front of you actually say that "a woman's hair was never cut?"

*The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge; Vol. 5, p. 18, informs us: “Women never cut their hair (cf. Jer. vii. 29), and long hair was their greatest ornament (Cant. iv. 1; cf. I Cor. xi 15; Cant. vii. 5).”

*The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, p. 158, “Hair”: “A woman’s hair was never cut except as a sign of deep mourning or of degradation.”

*Of course I understand about OT degradation of immorality (you do realize this was my source don't you :heeheehee?).

*I should also point out that the verb "komao" (grow long hair) in I Cor. 11 is a present tense, active voice verb. That is, the hair of a woman is to actively be allowed to grow (on-going action).

*Gotta' love AFF :happydance.

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 1535964)

Are you saying that "mourning" was immoral in the OT?

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1535966)

Are you saying that "mourning" was immoral in the OT?

*Answer my questions first then I will gladly answer this one (I already did above actually). You can begin about 5 pages back & begin to work forward through the tons of questions that have been overlooked :highfive.

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp (Post 1535968)

I will answer the question myself:

"Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil." Joel 2:12-13

Yes, it was your source, but you only wanted to focus on the one consideration - "degradation". You didn't want to look at the other consideration - "deep mourning".

Quote:

*The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, p. 158, “Hair”: “A woman’s hair was never cut except as a sign of deep mourning or of degradation.”

I can't get past what you did here to support your viewpoint, while calling me a liberal for daring to point out the discrepancy.

Because of what you did with your "source", I can't take your other questions seriously.

Another point I would like to make, it is all well and good that you have your "helps", but note that 31 Bible translations had all of that same information and come away with "cut off" and only 2 come away with "cut".

And in the midst of all of those "helps", the average and majority reader is going to see what Costeon has seen. That is why the issue is still being debated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Costeon;
Now regarding the quote, though this has been a common idea among Apostolics, I think it is almost impossible to maintain. The verse this idea rests on is 11.6: "For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered."

So the contrast is between "shorn" and "shaved." There is really no debate on what "shaved" means so I won't address it. But does "shorn" simply mean "to cut"? If someone looked the word up in a Greek lexicon, they might be able to maintain this definition, but the meaning of words is not determined by looking at a lexicon or dictionary alone; you have to look up the contexts in which the word occurs to determine the range of meaning of this word and to truly understand the lexicon definition. There are only two places besides 1 Cor 11 in the NT where this verb is used that shed light on the meaning of the word. In neither is the idea to simply cut.

Acts 8.32: "The place in the Scripture which he read was this: 'He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so He opened not His mouth.'"

"Shearer" is not a noun in the Greek but a participial form of the verb that appears in 11.6.

So the first example is dealing with shearing sheep--not trimming them a bit but cutting off their wool.

Acts 18.18: "So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow."

So here, Paul didn't get his hair trimmed--he didn't go for just a regular hair cut--he had all his hair ceremonially cut off (similar to Num 6).

Since in the other NT contexts this verb does not mean "to cut" but "to cut off," there is no reason to interpret 1 Cor 11.6 as "to cut." In other words, in this verse Paul is contrasting similar things--shaving off and cutting the hair off--not dissimilar things--shaving and trimming.

That is hard to argue against, IMO. It is very plain, again, without the "helps" that are not divinely inspired. Costeon simply, without realizing it, reminded me of the powerful and awesome things that God showed me, as a new convert, having only my Bible and a Strong's Concordance. Nothing those two sources showed me deviated away from sound doctrine.