Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

looking around for scarves online for you to buy PO, nah, let's go with hats!!!

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

I actually have never liked hats. I have a black NIKE visor I use sometimes. :heeheehee

Is your model nude?

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

no, but her shoulders are showing, I can get rid of her.

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

:thumbsup

If you get into posting hats and scarves, you will end up with as many posts as I have. Before Pinterest, we posted Christmas images every year and shoes, shoes, shoes. LOL!

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

*bump* for Esaias...

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

A woman should not cut her hair. As I posted earlier, the meaning (in English, of the English phrase) of "to cut the hair" is somewhat ambiguous. Most people (outside of oneness pentecostal churches and certain conservative holiness movement churches, and perhaps a few others) would understand the phrase "a woman should not cut her hair" to mean a woman should not get a hair cut that significantly shortens the length of her hair, or such as to put her hair on the "mannish" side. Within our movement and a few others, "a woman should not cut her hair" is understood to mean a woman is not to so much as trim split ends, regardless of how much, if any, the length is reduced. (Yes, it is possible to trim split ends without reducing length of hair, although it is not quite as effective as simply cutting straight across and removing the length of hair that is splitting.)

There is, then, a dispute within our ranks of not only the meaning of "shorn" and "long hair"/komao, but also a dispute (or perhaps I should say, difference of understanding) concerning the English term "cut". As I pointed out, if a woman said "I cut my hair" MOST people outside of our ranks would immediately envision the woman's hair being significantly (ie noticeably) shorter. Trimming the split ends, or shaping the hair without significantly reducing the overall length), is not generally understood by most people as "getting a hair cut". In our ranks, however, "I cut my hair" could mean something as simple as snipping off a few split ends here and there, which NOBODY would be able to notice even upon a close visual inspection. (!)

Also, this creates a conundrum. If komao means "to allow the hair to grow without trimming any amount whatsoever", so that any trimming whatsoever is no longer komao, so that "have long hair" has nothing to do with length whatsoever (!) but strictly with whether any trimming, cutting, scissoring, etc has taken place at all to any extent in any amount whatsoever... then it necessarily follows that a man can have hair to his belt as long as he regularly trims it. And he will not "have long hair" because he does not allow it to komao.

I found this on a blog:

"Jason L WeatherlyNovember 21, 2017 at 7:32 AM
"Long hair" is not measurement or inch on a ruler. It is the idea of "not cutting the hair," which is how Louw & Nida describe komao. So, the idea is not necessarily "never cutting the hair," but "not cut the hair." At the point a woman ceases from cutting her hair - no matter how many inches her hair grows beyond that point - her hair is "long." So, if a woman "never" cuts her hair - of course, her hair is "long," because it's never been cut. However, if a woman has previously cut her hair, but at some point in her life decides to cease from cutting her hair, at that time that she no longer cuts her hair - her hair is "long."

So, again, the idea behind the verb komao is not what is the measurement of a woman's hair i.e. how far down her back does her hair hang, but the idea of allowing the hair to grow without cutting it." http://theweatherlyreport.blogspot.c...o-or-have.html

This clearly shows that komao has no reference whatsoever to actual length of hair, that long hair isn't about being long or short, but strictly about whether or not it is allowed to grow without interfering in the growth via cutting. And so the conclusion is inescapable: a man can have hair down his back to his belt line, but it is not komao, it is not "having long hair", as long as he trims it and prevents it from growing further.

Now, this situation is admittedly ridiculous. Nobody in Pentecost would accept a man with hair down to his belt line as having "short hair" just because he regularly trims it. "Judge in yourselves, is it comely..." etc.

So then we have a problem with defining of terms, both Greek and English.

Since I understand Paul's actual message to be about headcovering, and not about hair length or trimming or cutting or whatnot, I am only peripherally involved in this discussion about cutting of hair. I believe Paul explicitly affirms that a woman ought not to cut her hair, that it's cool for a woman to have long hair, that a man ought not to have long hair. But he does that not because he is trying to teach anyone that. Rather, he assumes it to be true, and assumes his readers feel likewise. "Judge in yourselves, "etc.

I think when Paul speaks about having the woman be shorn or shaved, he is speaking of having her hair cut to be more alike to a man's manner of wearing the hair. If she wants to be uncovered (like a man), then she ought to go ahead and cut her hair (like a man). But if that is a shame (it is, Paul's statement is not a pure conditional, but rather emphatic, "since it is a shame" etc) then let the woman be covered.

So, "Can a Christian woman trim her split ends? Can she wear bangs? Can she have hair down the back but cut straight across?" Well, if komao can be shown to necessarily exclude those things, then no. But that brings us to our conundrum regarding men's hair. Conundrum, Gordian knot, or the horns of a dilemma, I am not sure. Perhaps RDP or someone else can help us navigate those waters a bit more tightly? Scylla and Charybdis await on each side, it seems...

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

Well done, Esaias! And, so we wait for rdp or someone else who can help us navigate those waters a bit more tightly?

I just want to add that it is significant, IMO, what Costeon lays out here, and my post doesn't warrant a response:

Now, you, Esaias, posted a significant number of Bible translations.
After reviewing them and categorizing their conclusions (post #153), we see that after they have all considered the information necessary to complete their works, the majority come away with Costeon's view- shorn and shaved do not mean to simply "cut". Only TWO translations provide that opinion.

I for one, don't want to pronounce judgment on a person's life with just Louw & Nida. Because, that is the reference that has always been given through the years of discussing this subject beginning with FCF, if memory serves me right, and I believe it does.

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women
 

*However, since I have repeatedly pointed out that these authorities and linguists appeal to the context of I Cor. 11 for this verb here’s some more data on this unit of passages below regarding the verb κομᾷ (“have long hair”) in verse 15 (that y’all can say doesn’t mean what it says also). This is from a PDF that I have on my computer. The footnotes are staggering, but too exhaustive to post here (& would take me forever).

*While the author below, Dr. A. Philip Brown II (Associate Prof. of Language, Bible, & Theology at God’s Bible School & College) opts for the meaning of "cut short" for κείρασθαι in I Cor. 11.6 (to be expected, he does not interact w. the lexical sources I have posted - and equivocates on the meaning as well), he does nonetheless conclude against the notion that Christian woman should cut their hair based upon I Cor. 11.

The verb κομάω “wear/have long hair,” occurs in the NT only in 1 Corinthians 11:13-14. It does not occur in the Septuagint. It occurs only once in Josephus where he is describing the practice of Nazirites who “allow their hair to grow long.”56

It occurs once in Pseudo-Phocylides: “Long hair is not proper for boys, but for youthful women.”57 Philo uses κομάω metaphorically with the sense “plume oneself, give oneself airs”58 and appears to be making something of a play on words since he quotes a phrase from Num. 6:5 in the LXX “nourishes the hair of his head” (τρέφοντα κόμην τρίχα κεφαλῆς) and then interprets it to indicate that “he is holy who promotes the growth in the principal portion of himself of the principal shoots of the doctrines of virtue, and who in a manner prides himself [κομῶντα] and takes delight in these doctrines.”59

Plutarch uses the verb κομάω to describe the following:60 the practice of the Spartans who wore their hair and beards long (Sayings of the Spartans 230B61 232D62); allowing the hair of the beard to grow long enough to be seen by its wearer (232E.463); the practice of Greek men letting their hair grow long when misfortune comes (such as a death), in contrast to the women who cut off their hair in such situations (267B64); the customary practice of women to grow long hair as opposed to men who normally have their hair cut (267B65); wearing long hair as the special function of a Roman archon (Roman and Greek Questions 274B66); the Parthian practice of wearing long bushy hair to make themselves appear more formidable (Life of Crassus 24.267); Caius Marius wearing long hair from the day of his exile until his return at the age of more than 70 years (Life of Caius Marius 41.668); a man having a head of much long curly hair (Life of Cimon 5.269); male show-offs who wore long hair and talked big (De Stoicorum repugnantiis 1038C70); of a Greek despot, Lykurgus, who made boys wear long hair and girls cut their hair and wear boy’s clothes (Virtues of Women 261F71); of Greek youths who wore their hair long because they were not yet men (Virtues of Women 261E72); of Greek young men who let their hair grow long after the age of puberty (Lycurgus 2273); of an army of young men who escort Cicero with their hair let loose as a sign of their distress and desire to entreat mercy (Cicero).

Although κομάω can be used with various metaphorical senses (e.g., to have loose, unkempt hair, or putting on airs), the normal meaning of the word throughout Koine' literature is “to allow the hair to grow long by not cutting it, wear long hair.”

Κόμη — “Long/Uncut hair:"

Κόμη occurs in the NT only in 1 Cor. 11:15. It occurs eleven times in the Septuagint. Of those 11x, it refers to uncut hair twice (nazirite vow–Num. 6:5; regulations for priests’ hair–Eze 44:20).75 In Lev. 19:27 Israelite men are prohibited from making “a round cutting of the hair” of their head.76 Job 1:20 describes Job as rising and shaving “the hair of his head” (ἐκείρατο τὴν κόμην τῆς κεφαλῆς).77 The remaining canonical occurrences are metaphorical uses (Job 16:12; 38:32) or mistranslations (Ezek. 24:23).

Four occurrences are found in apocryphal books, two of which refer to men’s hair (Jdt. 13:7; Bel. 1:36) and two to women’s hair (3 Ma. 1:18; 4:6).
Κόμη occurs 19 times in Josephus, 18 times reference to hair, and once in reference to hyssop bunches. Josephus uses κόμη to denote Samson’s hair which was not to be cut as a Nazirite (Ant. 5.278, 311-14).

After Samson’s hair was shaved, Josephus notes that “in the process of time Samson’s κόμη grew again (Ant. 5.314). According to Josephus, the prophet Samuel was a Nazirite whose hair was permitted to grow long (κόμη τε οὖν αὐτῷ ἀνεῖτο; Ant. 5.347). Absalom’s κόμη supposedly grew at such a rapid rate that, according to Josephus, it needed to be cut every 8th day (Ant. 7.189, 239).78 While David was fleeing Absalom, Mephibosheth didn’t cut his κόμη (Ant. 7.267).

This survey of the uses of κόμη in Koine literature indicates that κόμη does not necessarily denote uncut hair, though it may if the context makes it clear. It may refer to the hair of men or women and is typically used to denote long or feminine-length hair, or hair arranged like a woman’s.
Paul’s Terminology for Cutting Hair79

The terms used by Paul in 1 Cor. 11:5-6 for cutting, ξυρόω and κείρω, mean “shave” and “shear, cut short” respectively. Although the verb κείρω may refer to a range of degrees of cutting,80 it is most commonly used in the context of cutting something short, e.g., shearing sheep, harvesting grain.81

It appears that the standard term for cutting that did not involve the removal of a large quantity of hair was ἀποκείρω,82 though κείρω could also be used.83 For example, in Plato’s Phaedo, Socrates strokes the hair (τρίχας) at the back of Phaedo’s neck and says, “Tomorrow, perhaps, Phaedo, you will cut off [ἀποκερῇ] this beautiful hair.”84 In Josephus’s account of the Samson narrative, the angel tells his mother “not to cut his hair” (τὰς κόμας αὐτῷ μὴ ἀποκείρειν; Ant. 5.278; cf. Ant. 5.312).

According to Josephus, Absalom’s hair was so thick and fast-growing that his hair (κόμη) had to be cut (ἀποκείρειν) every 8 days! Philo describes young male slaves who “have very long hair, being either completely unshorn (μὴ κειρόμενοι), or else having only the hair on their foreheads evened at the end so as to make them of an equal length all round.”85

Paul’s comparison of being “uncovered” (ἀκατακαλύπτῳ τῇ κεφαλῇ) to two degrees of cutting the hair in verse six (τὸ κείρασθαι ἢ ξυρᾶσθαι) supports the conclusion that he has in mind a lesser degree of the same state, i.e., cut hair. Taking ἀκατακαλύπτῳ τῇ κεφαλῇ to refer being uncovered due to having cut hair and κόμη to refer to uncut hair yields a coherent reading of verses 5-6, as the following paraphrase suggests:

5 But every woman praying or prophesying with an uncovered head [due to having cut hair] shames her head, for such a state is one and the same [in terms of its shame] as the woman whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered [with uncut hair], then let her cut it off short, but if it is a shame for a woman to have her hair shaved off or cut short, let her be being covered [by letting her hair grow without cutting it].

The Early Church’s Interpretation of Paul’s use of κόμη and κομάω:

The early church’s interpretation regarding Paul’s use of komáo (κομάω) and kóme (κόμη) is remarkably uniform. In no case are these words taken to refer to hair that is long and yet cut. The consistent understanding that emerges from the extant record is that men are not to have uncut hair and women are to have uncut hair. Examples of this understanding include:

The Synod of Gangra: “If any woman from pretended asceticism shall cut off her hair, which God gave her as the reminder of her subjection, thus annulling as it were the ordinance of subjection, let her be anathema.”86

Severian of Gabala: And although the men who wore long hair in ancient times cut off part of it, [they still] wore it longer than was necessary; however, it was always forbidden for a woman to shear her hair”87

Augustine, in Of the Work of Monks, who argues that Paul prohibits men from having long hair: “For the same Apostle saith, that long hair is also instead of a veil: by whose authority these men are hard pressed. Seeing he saith openly, “If a man wear long hair, it is a disgrace to him.” “The very disgrace,” say they, “we take upon us, for desert of our sins:” holding out a screen of simulated humility, to the end that under cover of it they may carry on their trade of self- importance.”88

Conclusion:

Contemporary logic argues, “Paul said it was a shame for a woman to shave or shear her hair. He didn’t say she couldn’t trim it. Since trimming hair is cutting off less hair than shaving or shearing or “cutting,” it is not prohibited by this passage.” This argument stands if (1) it is true that Koine Greek supports a distinction between cutting hair and trimming it, and (2) Paul intended to make this distinction in 1 Cor. 11.

Since I can find no such distinction in Koine literature, in the early church’s understanding of this passage, or in Paul, I conclude that the argument is not legitimate. Paul’s expectation was that women would have uncut hair that grows however long nature has determined, and that men would have cut hair that did not “cover” their heads and thus is distinctly masculine.

Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women