Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I see. I have one problem though... the scripture doesn't say "he who was the son created all things" or even "God created the worlds by he who was the son"... it says "God created the worlds by the Son". It explicitly says that the Son was involved in creation and not simply that he who was the Son was involved in creation. I hope you can see the difference I am gettin at.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

But that means the person known as George Bush DID exist. He just was not the President yet...so that actually goes against your view that the Son did not exist. It supports my view that the Son did exist as God (not as the Son)

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

But, who'd say that President Bush did such and such for Texas? It'd be a ref. to George Bush as governor did such and such for Texas.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

If God is eternal, existing in every second in time at once,... the Son was eternally with God... even if the Son was also born in a given moment in time according to our perception of time and reality.

Remember... God sees things that are not as though they are. God is not bound by the present. Past, present, future are all NOW to God. God is eternally transcendent of time itself. Even the angels are bound by time... but God isn't. God's already beholding us seated with Christ in Heavenly places... and it is yet to be.

So I'd have to say that yes, the Son pre-existed the incarnation with relation to God's eternality. However, the Son was also born in time in accordance to our temporal reality.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

John begins his Christological view NOT with Father and Son but Logos and Ho Theos..word and God. It was only after the Logos was made flesh that John introduces Father and Son

So God created "by" the Son when God created by the Logos.

How did God create by the Son anyways? Did God command the Son to create then sit back and watch? That would make God NOT the Creator but the Son

Who spoke "Let there be light"? God or the Son?

Who created man in His own image? God or Son?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Why does that mean the Son was Eternally with God? It's not true just because you said so

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

God beheld and experienced the crucifixion before the world began. The Son was always with God... yet one could also say that the Son didn't exist prior to the incarnation.

We can't chain God to our perception and logic. God transcends time. There isn't past, present, and future with relation to God. There is ony an eternal "NOWness" before God.

Do you believe that God is bound by time Prax? Or does God transcend time... time being something that was created by God with relation to the perception of us being temporal creatures who are not eternal in nature?

The point is... there isn't any such thing as "time" when considering God's nature. God speaks into time and acts in time when relating to "us". Because we are temporal, time bound, beings.

A man, bound by time, can say that the Son didn't exist until he was born in a manger.
But God, who transcends time itself, can say that He has been beholding the babe in the manager from eternity past. God, who transcends time itself, can say that He beheld the glory of His Son's crucifixion from eternity past. God, who transcends time itself, can say that His Son existed in glory, seated with Him, from eternity past.

But to us who are trapped in time... we can't see it or experience it as He can.

So has the Son always existed with God? YES.
Was the Son "begotten" in a given moment in time? YES.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

True but in defense of his analogy I can say "President Bush governed Texas for 4 years"...does that mean Bush was the President AT the time he governed Texas? No. But we can refer to him NOW as President in referenced to things he did or was before being President

Same goes for the Son...the bible calls Him Son rightly because Son He is. If He was NOT the Son when He created that does not mean we can't still call Him "Son" now in reference to what He did or was before becoming Son

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

God bends human logic into a gelatinous foolishness. Trying to comprehend God will drive one insane. A gnat cannot begin to comprehend the rings of Saturn, let alone the spiral arms of the Mikly Way... but he'd be closer at trying to comprehend it than we are when attempting to comprehend the eternal. Because God is both the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last. The Lion and the Lamb. All at once. God is the God who WAS... the God who IS... and the God who always WILL BE.... right now!

Do we dare bind God by our silly stop watches and calendars??? Who are we to define Him by time... when time itself is something He created?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Did you know that God can have one hand in the present, one hand in the past, and be gazing at events yet to come as though they are a living reality before Him... and shape reality into whatseover He desires?