Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Seems to me homosexuality is a judgement of God or a result of people who have rejected God. I don't believe any sin is unpardonable except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and there is a some conjecture on what that really is. Homosexuality is one of the vilest, even Paul places emphasis on this horrible sin against natural order of things. I pray for everyone to be saved including homosexuals, but many seem to embrace this sin in the face of God. The prince of this nation seems to have a gay agenda to push homosexuality down the throats of God fearing men and women. If homosexuals come to church seeking God than I welcome them, but it seems that many seem to have an agenda. Many are not looking for the one true God, but are trying to recreate a god that is is accepting of their behavior. Look at the catholic church who by the little studies I done have perverted the word of God to serve themselves. This is what I see that most homosexuals seem to be doing.

I take no issue with people that choose to uphold the UPC holiness standards. The problem I have is when non believers are made to feel like they have to conform to the set of rules created by the organization or order for the to be saved. In providing the rules for them, you override the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their life.

Instead of allowing them to be convicted by Christ and the Word, the feel condemnation, judgement, and pressure to conform immediately.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

amen
ooh, zing! Didn't i read somewhere NT that everything is legal, now? But i grasp your position, Steve. You were just born about...2500 years too late, perhaps. Grace is hard--for everyone, i think. I confess that i would not be comfortable with two men holding hands, anywhere. Two women holding hands, ok. This tells me that i have been socially conditioned. Programmed, if you will. I am impressed that you would even allow homosexuals in your church, if that is true.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Churches of every denomination have standards, they may differ, but yet they have them. These standards are each individual church's definition of scripture. It is called doctrine. A church would be wrong in not teaching doctrine. The key to it is teaching truth. We should not let new believers wing it and just do what ever they feel in the spirit. They need discernment that must be developed over time. I will teach holiness standards as some would call it because I love people. Most importantly in addition to teaching it I will try to model it in my life. Any believer who does not want to conform to the church has a problem at the start. If you think back to your conversion, remember the hunger you felt. The problem is that we live in a world who wants Jesus to be their Savior, but do not want Him to be there Lord. He must first become your Lord. If a person comes into the church with a hungry heart and an open mind then they will make it. I hope all continue to keep doctrine, but also hope they are prayerfully studying the Word of God to develop it. Everyone has the responsibility for their self to decide what is right. Church leaders have that same responsibility to their self and those who follow. It is true that we should not condemn people, but we should condemn sin and even be able to define many things that are sin to people. If we are teaching things that we can't support through scripture than we should rethink things whether or not we are right.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

No other sin is asking for acceptance, special treatment and special recognition.
It seems to be somewhat different.
It was also treated somewhat different in the Bible.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

two very cogent posts, imo
A76, i might point out that it was the relentless oppression of homosexuals, their lack of access to basic human rights, that has caused this asking for "special recognition," which smells like a satanic setup to me...

I'm not talking about a homosexual that wants to join a church, become the music direction, yet still live a homosexual lifestyle. My mention of it was referring to a female same-sex couple that I was seeing in our church for the first time. My initial point was to say that I am so glad to be a part of a church where people like that feel welcome to come.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

Did they repent? Does the spirit they feel make them comfortable and want to stay in their sin?

I have no idea. I haven't yet developed the ability to see the contents of another person's heart and soul.

I do know that one of the women was weeping in the presence of God.

Re: Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore
 

The church has to learn to walk that fine line of being loving and kind while yet clearly teaching the biblical position about homosexuality. I believe the church has not done a good job of that overall. It's the old thing about loving the people without loving the sin. The same as we do for drug addicts, alcoholics, fornicaters, etc.