Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

You're confused.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Yes. And also 1 Cor 15.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Rather the truth has become so rare people dont recognize it for what it is.:highfive

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Everything has a form but not everything is a body

A coffee cup has the form of a coffee cup but it is not someone's body

They never said there was a permanent body...you are arguing a strawman

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

No, why don't you explain to us how it is Arianism modified.

Start by telling us what you think Arianism is, then explain what modified Arianism is, then tell us how what he said is "modified Arianism"

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

I'm really surprised that Apostolics are even having this discussion. I guess some folks haven't made up their own mind what they believe. However, a discussion like this is good in terms of either drawing someone who isn't sure closer to the truth, driving them further from the truth, or solidifying what their own perception of the truth may be.

Either way...I guess this topic does need to be discussed.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

Trins love to use this scripture to prove the eternal son doctrine.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col. 1:12-17

While it does say the Son is Creator it also explains who the Son actually was at creation. The image of the invisible God. This is the same thing as the Logos. The Son pre existed as THE LOGOS.

The other scripture that says the Son is Creator contains the same explanation:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb. 1:1-3

Note that Paul explains that the Son is the brightness of HIS glory and the express image of HIS person. So again Paul does say the Son was Creator but lets us know in what way the Son existed as Creator. As his visible image. Not another distinct person as an eternal son.

It is by the understanding of THE LOGOS doctrine that Oneness can defend its position against Trinitarianism. Without it we must admit that the Son existed from eternity as another person from the Father, close up shop and go home.

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

And what is your view?

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

:spit

Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 

If the Son did not yet exist how did God make the worlds by the Son?