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Re: Christmas is pagan

scripture search for *under every green tree*

Deuteronomy 12:2
Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:

1 Kings 14:23
For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.

2 Kings 16:4
And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.

2 Kings 17:10
And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:

2 Chronicles 28:4
He sacrificed also and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.

Isaiah 57:5
Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?

Jeremiah 2:20
For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

Jeremiah 3:6
The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

Jeremiah 3:13
Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 6:13
Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols.

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1510034)

It is kind of sad that the way we observe Christmas reminds God of Baal Worship

WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT GIFTS UNDER TREES...

Christmas may not be mentioned by name in the Bible but the words “gifts” and “tree” are in the same context with the sacrifice of children and the worship of idols. Read the following passage to see what God has to say about “gifts and trees.”

Ezekiel 20:26,28, 31 “I let them become defiled through their GIFTS---the sacrifice of every first-born...” vs. 28 “When I brought them into the land that I had sworn to give them and when they saw any high hill or any leafy tree, there they offered their sacrifices...” vs.31 “When you offer your GIFTS -the sacrifice of your sons in the fire, you continue to defile yourselves with all of your idols to this day...” In The New English Translation of the Bible , there is a notation about the phrase “every leafy tree”. They inform us that this expression refers to evergreens, “because they keep their leafy foliage throughout the year, providing apt symbolism for nature cults such as those practiced in Canaan.”

Anciently, the worship of Baal involved rites of human sacrifice of firstborn children up to the age of five by causing them to “pass through the fire to Molech.” “They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech...” Jeremiah 32:34-35 The word Molech simply means King. The idol Molech had the shape of a bull and in fact, the English word bull is a corruption of the Hebrew Bal or Baal.

Read from the Mythology of all Religions, vol. 5. “Living infants and children were BURNED IN THE FIRE to the god Molech during this time. This was the time of the winter solstice (Dec. 25th) when those heathen were dismayed at the signs of heaven!”

Let’s examine Baal worship in detail, since according to the Bible, it was the very cause of the rejection of both Israel and Judah. “And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree....And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire....Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. II Kings 17:10, 16-20

Note that Baal’s places of worship were set up “in every high hill, and under every green tree” The two most important requirements for the alter of Baal were elevation and evergreen trees. If the land was flat, they would construct manmade “high places” called stepped pyramids, Ziggurats or Sun Temples. And according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the “green tree” mentioned here wasn’t just any old tree. They state that it means “any kind of evergreen tree, in its native soil.”

http://www.thechurchesofgod.com/Good...20Religion.htm

Unless it is carried per Baal worship specs, it does not constitute Baal worship.

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1510031)

I think you misunderstood Aquila. As I understand him, we have essentially neutralized any original intentions of the pagan RCC by exalting Jesus at that time of year.

I understood him perfectly. We haven't neutralized anything. We've just corrupted ourselves by keeping Baal's rites alive.

But that's standard issue with modern Christianity, so no surprise there.

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1510033)

Furthermore, Jeremiah was speaking of carving idols from cut trees, not decorating a tree . There is nothing in the Bible that outlaws decorating plants.

It's amazing the lengths people will go to defend their pagan traditions. This is undoubtedly the very reason catholicism adopted Christmas, Easter, All Hallow's Eve, the mass, fish-god hats, Lent, Ash Wednesday, icons, statues, prayers to dead saints, relics, holy water, Marianism, Sunday, etc etc etc. "If you can't beat them, join them."

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1510023)

Which holiday celebrations mark various times to contemplate "spiritual warfare"?

Well, in the first church I attended, the pastor would discuss Satan, the origin of the demonic, the dangers of the occult, the reality of spiritual enemies, the power of the name of Jesus over the demonic, prayer & fasting, authority over evil spirits, conquering fear, death, Hell, etc. around the time of Halloween. He didn't like to elaborate on those things all year long, but he would take the opportunity given the cultural holiday to address these issues in a more in depth manner. He'd even recommend various books. Like one year he recommended Frank Peretti's book, Piercing the Darkness, for those who wished to better understand the invisible war that takes place in our lives every day.

We even had a Fall Family Night with a bonfire, candy, games, bobbing for apples, etc. We also had a "spooky" (for lack of a better term) little skit wherein the "ghosts" of great men like Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Huss, and other's told their stories to a man who had become spiritually cold, ending with William J. Seymour, and his recollection of the great Pentecostal revival of the 20th century and the restoration of the Apostolic truth. In the end he woke up, as though the entire account was a dream (or was it?). In the story, the experience left him with a renewed passion for God's Word and a humility in understanding the many men have given their lives for the advancement of the Bible and the Reformation that began under the Reformers that paved the way for Apostolic Revival. It was very, "Charles Dickens", in style and approach.

Since attending that church, I always use the Halloween time to discuss the reality of witchcraft, Hell, Satan, the demonic, and our spiritual warfare against them in our daily lives with my kids. It's an excellent time to delve deep into these topics because these things are in decorations, the movie theaters, television shows, etc. For example, my son's friend saw the movie, "Annabelle". It's apparently about a doll possessed by a malevolent ghost. My son asked me if ghosts were real and if they could haunt a doll. I told him I didn't have all the answers about "ghosts", but I elaborated on how demonic spirits indeed can pose as the spirits of the departed and how I believe that these demon spirits can possess people, places, and things and how we overcome these spirits through the name, power, and authority of Jesus.

Ultimately, Halloween (Hallows Eve), is about the reality of evil and our struggle against it. While yes, the ancient pagans elaborated upon how these "witches, ghosts, and goblins" ran amuck on this night, they also stressed the need to overcome them. Being Christian, we know the power to overcome evil is in the name of Jesus. Why not take the opportunity to elaborate on that? At least, that's my logic and approach to the Hallowtide.

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1510028)

4th of July? Memorial Day? 9/11? Veteran's Day?

I could see that. :thumbsup

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1510030)

We don't "take dominion" over idolatry by enshrining the rituals of Baal worship in a vain tradition that perpetuates them and keeps them going.

Israel was told to exterminate every vestige of paganism as they took dominion of Canaan. I'm sure there were dupes and dupettes saying "Oh hey these Canaanite rituals can be redeemed, we'll just make a few modifications and do them unto YHVH instead of Baal" but they were in the category of Balaam and Jezebel, not Caleb and Joshua.

And those rites became a snare to the people.

True. But I see a fundamental difference between us and Israel. God was purifying a single nation of people through which to launch the plan of redemption in Christ Jesus. We're a body comprised of every nation, kindred, people, and tongue. We have different styles of music, language, dress, and we even have various expressions of cultural heritage that is part of who we are as individuals. I'm Scott-Irish. The traditions of my people are beautiful to me from a cultural perspective. Am I aware of their origins? Yes. But they are traditions. While my ancestors might have carved faces into turnips to scar away evil spirits, the very tradition reminds me of their lack of understanding and how that only Christ is the true light of the world who truly dispels the darkness.

I have no interest in pretending to be Jewish.

Re: Christmas is pagan

I suppose there must be someone out there who thinks the Thanksgiving holiday has its roots in Babylon, but for me, it is nothing short of a FAMILY holiday, made into a national holiday by Abraham Lincoln, himself.

The reason I call it a "family" holiday, is that my family was at the first one. My first white ancestor in North America was named Stephen Hopkins. He tried to come to America in 1609, but was first shipwrecked on the isle of Bermuda. Accounts of this shipwreck filtered back to England where some have speculated they inspired Shakespeare to write his famous play, The Tempest.

Stephen Hopkins finally made it to Jamestown but later heard of the death of his wife back in England so he returned. He spent a few years there, remarried, and was aboard the Mayflower with his family in 1620, signed the Mayflower Compact on arrival at Cape Cod, and was present at the first Thanksgiving along with his son Giles, from whom I descend.

I am very thankful to Almighty God for preserving my relatives in the wilderness then and for keeping my family down through the centuries through the vagaries of revolutions and civil wars and world wars. I can't help but think this hand was upon them because he knew that he would eventually fill ME with the Holy Ghost in the 20th Century and reveal to me HIS truth.

Oddly, when the Pilgrims were contacted by Tesquantum, the Alqonquian-language-speaking Native American, he stayed in the Hopkins household. Fast-forward nearly 400 years. Stephen Hopkins now has a descendant who comes from a Algonquian-language-speaking Native American Tribe (my grandson). I'm thankful and I'm going to celebrate it!

Re: Christmas is pagan

So...far you anti DEC-25 Christmas celebration peeps.. Do you believe its wrong to celebrate the birth of Jesus at all or do you disagree with the date and technique??

Re: Christmas is pagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBandy (Post 1510048)

So...far you anti DEC-25 Christmas celebration peeps.. Do you believe its wrong to celebrate the birth of Jesus at all or do you disagree with the date and technique??

We celebrate His birth during Tabernacles, as He is God tabernacling with us.