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-   -   The Pre-Existence Of The Son (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=37398)

Praxeas 11-10-2011 12:42 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112652)
Splain that please how did the BODY become flesh?:thumbsup
Strawman argument. Eply is stuck. Someone help the man since Jfrog just told him that they did not use the word BODY

BTW If Eply then asks HOW did the form become flesh, then he has stuck in another logical fallacy I like to call "infant asking too many whys"

For example if I ask Eply to explain HOW fusion works and he can not that does not mean Fusion does not exist or happen.

How does Jesus walk on water Bro Eply? Merely asking why or how does not disprove X

Praxeas 11-10-2011 12:43 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1112660)
LOL. They shoulda said it was a temp body that vaporized.
They didn't say it was a body

Praxeas 11-10-2011 12:45 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1112675)
Very simple the word planted a sperm in Mary's womb. How do you plant a BODY(note the same body which is seen as a man)in Mary's womb? What does pemanent meant to you? In the words of Rush "words" mean something.:thumbsup
The did not say a body was planted inside Mary. Strawman argument #2

How did God plant a sperm cell in Mary? How did God turn an idea into a sperm cell? Don't know?

Praxeas 11-10-2011 12:47 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1112476)
These are my thoughts...





Condensing it: God exists simultaneously as omnipresent, invisble and yet He exists as in a visible form, known as the WORD. The visible form of God became flesh (the Man Christ Jesus). Therefore, that Man Christ Jesus is still our LORD, which is why we must worship him.
Nonetheless, God (in the invisble, omnipresent state) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice, it says our Lord. And as Christians, we have ONLY one Lord.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
So, there's a distinction in the visible and invisble existence of God, yet, only ONE (numerically One, not unity) God.
Where is the permanent body Bro Eply?

Michael The Disciple 11-10-2011 02:25 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
I believe the Logos was the visible form of the omnipresent spirit. I believe that form was an angelic type spirit body. Its ridiculous to think God had no spiritual body. He sat on a throne. He talked with Angels. They saw him and worshipped him.

Jacob said his ELOHIM was the Angel.

15 He blessed Joseph, and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has fed me all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads, and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. Gen. 48:15-16

In my opinion Jacob the Father of the Jewish nation, the grandson of Abraham knew more about Elohim than Trins, Arians, or modern Oneness. He said his God was the Angel.

That is the way it was passed down to the Jewish nation.

2 Yahweh also has a controversy with Judah,
and will punish Jacob according to his ways;
according to his deeds he will repay him.
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel;
and in his manhood he contended with God.
4 Indeed, he struggled with the angel, and prevailed;
he wept, and made supplication to him.
He found him at Bethel, and there he spoke with us,
5 even Yahweh, the God of Armies;
Yahweh is his name of renown! Hosea 12:2-5

This was no "pop up" angel that just popped up every now and then. It/he was the angel of his presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

This great Theophany (the only one there ever was) existed from the beginning of creation until Bethlehem. It did not vanish away or dematerialize. Rather it was taken by the omnipresent spirit and reduced down into a human seed implanted in the womb of the blessed virgin. In other words the Logos was made flesh.

So before the Logos was made flesh God existed as omnipresent spirit to big for the galaxies to contain. 1 Kings 8:27. As such he could not possibly be seen. He had no need of a form who was there to see him anyway?

Before creation he brought forth this form to express his eternal life to that he would create! So the Angels would not be standing there saying "Hey who are we?" "What are we doing here"? "Wheres God"?

Rather they would look upon a throne with a glorious being seated there. He could explain to them who he was and who they were. He could interact with his creation.

Though he was the Creator he was also the firstborn of all creation. Though he was the Creator he was the beginning of the creation of God.

And yet Jesus preexisted not just as the Angel of YHWH but also as the omnipresent spirit because tho the Logos was with God the Logos also WAS GOD.

So the Angel of YHWH was with YHWH in the sense of the visible being with the invisible not as another God person.

THIS IS THE MISSING PART OF ONENESS DOCTRINE. Without this I have noticed that the Trins always SEEM to defeat Oneness teachers in their debates.

Modern Oneness does not have the answer for John 1:1. Neither for John 17:5. Neither for Phil. 2:6.

Modern Oneness does agree with Ancient Oneness that there is only one God and Jesus is God. Yet over time they have been seduced away from the BIBLICAL DOCTRINE as to how Jesus Christ preexisted.

houston 11-10-2011 02:55 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Good stuff, MTD!

Steve Epley 11-10-2011 03:48 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1112704)
His body changed after death, just as ours will, and He rejoined His Father and God.
You have read Luke 24 & Jn 20 yes?

Steve Epley 11-10-2011 03:49 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1112718)
If it's circular reasoning then prove it is.

And yes it makes sense.

God is Eternal. God is God Himself, Yahweh.

God became the Son when God was incarnate.

Thus the Son pre-existed as God Himself not as God the Son. That is as simple as simple can get and that is not circular reasoning. That is linear reasoning

Please prove that was circular reasoning
Very simple. Simple is good.

Steve Epley 11-10-2011 03:52 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1112725)
The did not say a body was planted inside Mary. Strawman argument #2

How did God plant a sperm cell in Mary? How did God turn an idea into a sperm cell? Don't know?
Form or body what is the difference and the word was 'permanent' was it not?
God created a blood cell very simple. But what happened to this permanest FORM then?:thumbsup

Steve Epley 11-10-2011 03:53 PM
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1112741)
I believe the Logos was the visible form of the omnipresent spirit. I believe that form was an angelic type spirit body. Its ridiculous to think God had no spiritual body. He sat on a throne. He talked with Angels. They saw him and worshipped him.

Jacob said his ELOHIM was the Angel.

15 He blessed Joseph, and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has fed me all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads, and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. Gen. 48:15-16

In my opinion Jacob the Father of the Jewish nation, the grandson of Abraham knew more about Elohim than Trins, Arians, or modern Oneness. He said his God was the Angel.

That is the way it was passed down to the Jewish nation.

2 Yahweh also has a controversy with Judah,
and will punish Jacob according to his ways;
according to his deeds he will repay him.
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel;
and in his manhood he contended with God.
4 Indeed, he struggled with the angel, and prevailed;
he wept, and made supplication to him.
He found him at Bethel, and there he spoke with us,
5 even Yahweh, the God of Armies;
Yahweh is his name of renown! Hosea 12:2-5

This was no "pop up" angel that just popped up every now and then. It/he was the angel of his presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

This great Theophany (the only one there ever was) existed from the beginning of creation until Bethlehem. It did not vanish away or dematerialize. Rather it was taken by the omnipresent spirit and reduced down into a human seed implanted in the womb of the blessed virgin. In other words the Logos was made flesh.

So before the Logos was made flesh God existed as omnipresent spirit to big for the galaxies to contain. 1 Kings 8:27. As such he could not possibly be seen. He had no need of a form who was there to see him anyway?

Before creation he brought forth this form to express his eternal life to that he would create! So the Angels would not be standing there saying "Hey who are we?" "What are we doing here"? "Wheres God"?

Rather they would look upon a throne with a glorious being seated there. He could explain to them who he was and who they were. He could interact with his creation.

Though he was the Creator he was also the firstborn of all creation. Though he was the Creator he was the beginning of the creation of God.

And yet Jesus preexisted not just as the Angel of YHWH but also as the omnipresent spirit because tho the Logos was with God the Logos also WAS GOD.

So the Angel of YHWH was with YHWH in the sense of the visible being with the invisible not as another God person.

THIS IS THE MISSING PART OF ONENESS DOCTRINE. Without this I have noticed that the Trins always SEEM to defeat Oneness teachers in their debates.

Modern Oneness does not have the answer for John 1:1. Neither for John 17:5. Neither for Phil. 2:6.

Modern Oneness does agree with Ancient Oneness that there is only one God and Jesus is God. Yet over time they have been seduced away from the BIBLICAL DOCTRINE as to how Jesus Christ preexisted.
See. This is Arianism modified.


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