Originally Posted by Praxeas
(Post 868358)
Being a Pastor is not the same as "exercising authority over".
Are you asserting here that the God-ordained ministry is not in a postion of authority in the church?
You have to consider these verses in the context they are in.
Yes, & the context was church order. "These things I write to you so that you may know how to behave yourself in the household of God, which is the church....."
Is this speaking of being a pastor? Then why not say "I do not allow a woman to pastor". But specifically this is a woman not having authority over a man, not over men and women in the church,
You're speculating into the text, which does not state what you state here. It's an argument from silence Prax. You know better than that.
He begins with "But". That tells you this statement is related to a statement just made.
Which translation are you appealing to? And how does this change the plainess of the text?
1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.
Who in the world would just read that & conclude from the text alone that God "calls women preachers" in the church?? No one who simply allows the text to speak for itself.
What is significant of this is previously Jewish women were not allowed to go to synagogue and learn, only men were. So Paul is introducing a radical change in cultural thinking
Prax, Paul's writings were to the NT churches, not the inter-testamental Jews. So synagogues have nothing to do w/ this text, & the text never even mentions a synagogue. You're speculating INTO the text [eisegesis].
Then Paul says "I permit"...this is peculiar because he is speaking as Paul. Notice in this place where Paul distinguishes between what he teaches and what is the Lord's teaching? 1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
"If any man among you thinks himself to be spiritual or a prophet, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." When Paul was speaking on his own accord he explicitly states so, which he does not do here.
But what is Paul permitting or not permitting here?
From the NET bible commentary
According to BDAG 150 s.αὐθεντέω this Greek verb means "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to" (cf. JB "tell a man what to do").
So Paul is saying a woman should never assume a stance of independent authority, give orders or dictate to.
So the taught Word of God is not instructional? Besides, a commentary is not a lexicon, & I can quote several commentaries that strongly disagree. So, back to the text.
So presumably if that is someone's idea of what a Pastor is then yes she can't be a pastor....if that is really what a pastor is...a dictator
The nouns used here for women and men can be translated wife and husband too.
And not one single reputable translation adopts this rendering. Hmmmm. The terms primarily mean simply man & woman, just as translated.
From what I understand in the synagogues only the men went and learned...in quite subjection. Paul broke this cultural norm and allowed women to learn too in quite subjection. In the synagogues the men would then come home to their wives and teach them.
Where is all of this theology stated in the actual text:___________?
So this doesn't seem to be addressing pastoring unless one believes pastoring is to give orders.
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